Re: IDS 11 - Press Releases

>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > But IBM does have a developers program that is implemented SWG (SOFTWARE > > GROUP) wide. > > $800 is not a lot of money for *free* software and tech support. > >I want some of what you've been drinking. You've got to be kidding. >Why would someone pay $800 for what they can get from a competitor >for a fraction of the cost. > There you go again Daniel, playing the roll of the buffoon. Seriously, what company other than IBM can offer the breadth of products for $800 including tech support? Remember there's the entire Rational, Websphere, Tivolli, Information Management, and Lotus pillars. Not sure if *all* offering are covered, but when you consider the amount of product offerings, thats a lot. I believe that Apple charges Mac OS/X developers $200 a year to be in their developer group. The point being is that there is a price associated with the offering. If you can't find that the value exceeds the offering, then don't spend your money. If you think that the value exceeds the price, then get the package deal. Nobody here's drinking the blue cool-aid, and if you ask people who know me, they will tell you I never even took a sip. Unlike you, I'm my own man. ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

Gumpster, I think you'd have to be honest and admit you too play the buffoon, especially with your taglines. ;-) Anyway, I make pretty good money as a consultant, doing better with Linux than I ever did with Informix, so even though the $800 USD isn't as big a hit for me as it might be for others, even you admit it's only a valuable package if you use the other stuff that's available. You also point out that Mac folks have to cough up $200 USD, a much more reasonable price. I also see reasonable prices for other products. But even so, the price is free for a lot of other database products, and if Informix is ever going to go beyond just big ticket environments it will have to become unleashed to the general population at large, without big ticket prices. You also mentioned MySQL. MySQL database is in operation in hundreds of data centers right now, without restriction, or cost to the shop. Only when you develop an application that requires a MySQL runtime, do you pay something. The rest of the implementations of MySQL as a database are out there for FREE, even in production environments. I can and often do, compile MySQL on the platform I want it on to optimize it, and shove it under its own tree. This doesn't cost MySQL Corp anything, it actually shoves the competition out of the way, and opens the door for real support from MySQL, and MySQL third-party products. The point should not be lost that it's only MySQL, rather, MySQL has done a fantastic job of seeding its market, and is now reaping the harvest of a strong, loyal group of users. Who cares about its value vs Informix, the point is, it's all about building market share. Without seeding the market from the bottom, all IDS will ever be is a database very few people will know about. It will never reach any market momentum, which is precisely why I believe next month will be a dud. I _will_ be 100% proven right next month, you can count on it. It will be a whimper, and yet statistically another waste of a great opportunity to really bring IDS to the mainstream market. -t- Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >> Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> >> > But IBM does have a developers program that is implemented SWG >> (SOFTWARE >> > GROUP) wide. >> > $800 is not a lot of money for *free* software and tech support. >> >> I want some of what you've been drinking. You've got to be kidding. >> Why would someone pay $800 for what they can get from a competitor >> for a fraction of the cost. >> > > There you go again Daniel, playing the roll of the buffoon. > > Seriously, what company other than IBM can offer the breadth of products > for $800 including tech support? > > Remember there's the entire Rational, Websphere, Tivolli, Information > Management, and Lotus pillars. > > Not sure if *all* offering are covered, but when you consider the amount > of product offerings, thats a lot. > > I believe that Apple charges Mac OS/X developers $200 a year to be in > their developer group. > > The point being is that there is a price associated with the offering. > If you can't find that the value exceeds the offering, then don't spend > your money. If you think that the value exceeds the price, then get the > package deal. > > Nobody here's drinking the blue cool-aid, and if you ask people who know > me, they will tell you I never even took a sip. Unlike you, I'm my own > man. ;-) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN > http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm >

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >> Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> >> > But IBM does have a developers program that is implemented SWG >> (SOFTWARE >> > GROUP) wide. >> > $800 is not a lot of money for *free* software and tech support. >> >> I want some of what you've been drinking. You've got to be kidding. >> Why would someone pay $800 for what they can get from a competitor >> for a fraction of the cost. >> > > There you go again Daniel, playing the roll of the buffoon. There you go again Ian being the corporate apologist. <g> > Seriously, what company other than IBM can offer the breadth of products > for $800 including tech support? Which part of the link I posted didn't work? > Remember there's the entire Rational, Websphere, Tivolli, Information > Management, and Lotus pillars. And remember that much of that 'other' company's offerings such as JDeveloper are, and always have been, free of charge. But Tivoli and Lotus are really not the point anymore than is Unbreakable Linux. This is c.d.informix and the question is about Informix not lots of other products whose relationship to Informix is marginal. -- Daniel A. Morgan

"Ian Michael Gumby" <im_gumby@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.181.1181766747.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... > > > >>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >>Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> >> > But IBM does have a developers program that is implemented SWG >> > (SOFTWARE >> > GROUP) wide. >> > $800 is not a lot of money for *free* software and tech support. >> >>I want some of what you've been drinking. You've got to be kidding. >>Why would someone pay $800 for what they can get from a competitor >>for a fraction of the cost. > There you go again Daniel, playing the roll of the buffoon. > Seriously, what company other than IBM can offer the breadth of products > for $800 including tech support? Remember there's the entire Rational, > Websphere, Tivolli, Information Management, and Lotus pillars. The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and therefore don't want access to, a wide range of products. If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the entertainment sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me?

Neil Truby said: > "Ian Michael Gumby" <im_gumby@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:mailman.181.1181766747.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... >> >> >> >>>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >>>Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >>> >>> > But IBM does have a developers program that is implemented SWG >>> > (SOFTWARE >>> > GROUP) wide. >>> > $800 is not a lot of money for *free* software and tech support. >>> >>>I want some of what you've been drinking. You've got to be kidding. >>>Why would someone pay $800 for what they can get from a competitor >>>for a fraction of the cost. > >> There you go again Daniel, playing the roll of the buffoon. > >> Seriously, what company other than IBM can offer the breadth of products >> for $800 including tech support? Remember there's the entire Rational, >> Websphere, Tivolli, Information Management, and Lotus pillars. > > The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and therefore don't > want access to, a wide range of products. > If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the entertainment > sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me? This is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Real SMBs (not IBM's definition) don't really give a monkey's left bollock about the breadth or depth of IBM's software stack. They have a business problem, they need it fixed. None of that other stuff really means anything to potential Informix users. -- Bye now, Obnoxio "I'm astonished anyone pays real money for this crap." -- Cosmo -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is believed to be clean.

"Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message news:mailman.184.1181772267.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... Neil Truby said: > The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and therefore don't > want access to, a wide range of products. > If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the entertainment > sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me? >> This is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Real SMBs (not IBM's definition) don't really give a monkey's left bollock about the breadth or depth of IBM's software stack. They have a business problem, they need it fixed. None of that other stuff really means anything to potential Informix users. Thanks for the support, but that wasn't quite the point I was making. What I'm trying to say is this: End users might actually find the breadth of IBM's product range, its long history and its strong brand reassuring (even if they don't want to use much of the range right now, it's nice to know it's there). But SMB end-users are, I would contend, best understood by Business Partners that are themselves SMBs. And it is those *partners* who are themselves SMBs who will be deterred by the high cost of the "Value Package", partly because US$2,000 is peanuts to Morse but not to them, and partly because they are likely to be interested in a far narrow product set because they are small.

I think you're both right. As a real 'true' SMB, I am completely uninterested in the other products besides Informix. I wouldn't have time for Websphere, even if it were free. And I don't see Websphere used anywhere outside of big shops. I am focused only on Informix and Linux business solutions. As a matter of fact, if I have a web-based opportunity I would certainly not use any of IBM's web products simply because they are not applicable in the broader market, only in big gigantic corps where they actually have people using that crap. You wouldn't use it outside of a gigantic corp so it's a moot point. As a true SMB I understand my peers in the same space as Neil suggested. That means these kinds of critters choose the path of least resistance, and cost, just like big shops do. Because they are smaller scale, they can also take advantage of a lot of the products that are great for small scale, such as MySQL. Hello! MySQL is downloaded, installed, and run, done. It's up to me at this point to offer professional services that cater to this software. That's where I make my money. If Informix is a download just like MySQL, and binary-only, no source, that would be just fine. The caveat is support, you get what you pay for. I think it would be pretty easy for me to sell a real support contract to just about any SMB I work with for Informix support, and I get a commission for it. That's the way it should work. I think if somebody told me I could just get Informix for say $99 USD, as the only software package, as an IBM Partner, I'd be on board, plop down my $99, make a sale for IBM, develop applications without the damn timebomb, and stop complaining. After all if there are 8 products in the grab bag for $800 and I only need one, then that's $100 right? If I want DB2 I don't even have to pay anything last I checked. -t- Neil Truby wrote: > "Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message > news:mailman.184.1181772267.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... > > Neil Truby said: > >> The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and therefore don't >> want access to, a wide range of products. >> If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the entertainment >> sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me? > >>> This is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Real SMBs (not IBM's > definition) don't really give a monkey's left bollock about the breadth or > depth of IBM's software stack. They have a business problem, they need it > fixed. None of that other stuff really means anything to potential > Informix users. > > Thanks for the support, but that wasn't quite the point I was making. > > What I'm trying to say is this: > > End users might actually find the breadth of IBM's product range, its long > history and its strong brand reassuring (even if they don't want to use much > of the range right now, it's nice to know it's there). > But SMB end-users are, I would contend, best understood by Business Partners > that are themselves SMBs. > And it is those *partners* who are themselves SMBs who will be deterred by > the high cost of the "Value Package", partly because US$2,000 is peanuts to > Morse but not to them, and partly because they are likely to be interested > in a far narrow product set because they are small. > >

>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >And remember that much of that 'other' company's offerings such as >JDeveloper are, and always have been, free of charge. But Tivoli >and Lotus are really not the point anymore than is Unbreakable Linux. >This is c.d.informix and the question is about Informix not lots of >other products whose relationship to Informix is marginal. >-- >Daniel A. Morgan Danny boy, if I wanted a free version of Rational's app dev tool, I'd pick up Eclipse. :-P But you never did make a clear and concise point. There are tools that are available for free and without support. Like Derby. (Oh wait, IBM promises support for Cloudscape until 2008) But you have to pay for that support. ;-) And back to the main point. For $800.00 you get access to a lot of software. What do you get from Microsoft ? _________________________________________________________________ Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now. It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07

Timmy, A true SMB doesn't have an IT Staff. They want a solution and dont care about what drives it, as long as they can afford the solution. But that's not what the developers program is about. Its about delivering solutions to the marketplace. The $800 pays for access to both the software and the right to make support calls. Again TANSTAAFL. > >I think you're both right. > >As a real 'true' SMB, I am completely uninterested in the other products >besides >Informix. I wouldn't have time for Websphere, even if it were free. And I >don't >see Websphere used anywhere outside of big shops. I am focused only on >Informix >and Linux business solutions. As a matter of fact, if I have a web-based >opportunity >I would certainly not use any of IBM's web products simply because they are >not >applicable in the broader market, only in big gigantic corps where they >actually >have people using that crap. You wouldn't use it outside of a gigantic >corp so >it's a moot point. > >As a true SMB I understand my peers in the same space as Neil suggested. >That means >these kinds of critters choose the path of least resistance, and cost, just >like big >shops do. Because they are smaller scale, they can also take advantage of >a lot of >the products that are great for small scale, such as MySQL. Hello! MySQL >is downloaded, >installed, and run, done. It's up to me at this point to offer >professional services >that cater to this software. That's where I make my money. If Informix is >a download >just like MySQL, and binary-only, no source, that would be just fine. The >caveat is >support, you get what you pay for. I think it would be pretty easy for me >to sell a >real support contract to just about any SMB I work with for Informix >support, and I >get a commission for it. That's the way it should work. > >I think if somebody told me I could just get Informix for say $99 USD, as >the only >software package, as an IBM Partner, I'd be on board, plop down my $99, >make a sale >for IBM, develop applications without the damn timebomb, and stop >complaining. After >all if there are 8 products in the grab bag for $800 and I only need one, >then that's >$100 right? If I want DB2 I don't even have to pay anything last I >checked. > >-t- > > >Neil Truby wrote: > > "Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message > > news:mailman.184.1181772267.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... > > > > Neil Truby said: > > > >> The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and therefore >don't > >> want access to, a wide range of products. > >> If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the >entertainment > >> sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me? > > > >>> This is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Real SMBs (not IBM's > > definition) don't really give a monkey's left bollock about the breadth >or > > depth of IBM's software stack. They have a business problem, they need >it > > fixed. None of that other stuff really means anything to potential > > Informix users. > > > > Thanks for the support, but that wasn't quite the point I was making. > > > > What I'm trying to say is this: > > > > End users might actually find the breadth of IBM's product range, its >long > > history and its strong brand reassuring (even if they don't want to use >much > > of the range right now, it's nice to know it's there). > > But SMB end-users are, I would contend, best understood by Business >Partners > > that are themselves SMBs. > > And it is those *partners* who are themselves SMBs who will be deterred >by > > the high cost of the "Value Package", partly because US$2,000 is peanuts >to > > Morse but not to them, and partly because they are likely to be >interested > > in a far narrow product set because they are small. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Informix-list mailing list >Informix-list@iiug.org >http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail'award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507

Thanks Gumpster. We know what a 'true' SMB is, so let's all move along on that one. The way I and apparently others who don't want to spend $800 see it is that Informix is seen by IBM as just another app, part of a collection We don't want the collection, we just want the Informix stack. What I'm saying is that if IBM had smart people beyond the lab, and the folks that develop the product, they would have a REAL developer program specifically targeted at Informix developers. There is an understanding that I think IBM is missing here, that Informix developers typically work with best-of-breed products, rather than a single-stack of software from one vendor. I couldn't give a monkeys' left ass cheek about Clearcase, or Websphere, or any of the other crap software that IBM pushes out to big companies. I don't know of any small companies that would actually use that shyte. As to resources to help me, I have c.d.i., and if I want tech support I can pay for it. But let's not lose the point, Informix needs its own developer program. There's enough Informix components alone to work without having to know about any of the other crap that IBM sells. In my 20+ years of working with Informix I never used any of IBM's stuff except maybe Tivoli, and even at that I had a backup dude to work with it, and make it work. I'd rather see my $800 go towards a support contract specifically for Informix, as an annual maintenance contract. And still, I'd rather not spend $800 when I can spend less on other competing products, and still make money for my business. Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > Timmy, > > A true SMB doesn't have an IT Staff. > They want a solution and dont care about what drives it, as long as they > can afford the solution. > > But that's not what the developers program is about. > > Its about delivering solutions to the marketplace. > > The $800 pays for access to both the software and the right to make > support calls. > > Again TANSTAAFL. > >> >> I think you're both right. >> >> As a real 'true' SMB, I am completely uninterested in the other >> products besides >> Informix. I wouldn't have time for Websphere, even if it were free. >> And I don't >> see Websphere used anywhere outside of big shops. I am focused only >> on Informix >> and Linux business solutions. As a matter of fact, if I have a >> web-based opportunity >> I would certainly not use any of IBM's web products simply because >> they are not >> applicable in the broader market, only in big gigantic corps where >> they actually >> have people using that crap. You wouldn't use it outside of a >> gigantic corp so >> it's a moot point. >> >> As a true SMB I understand my peers in the same space as Neil >> suggested. That means >> these kinds of critters choose the path of least resistance, and cost, >> just like big >> shops do. Because they are smaller scale, they can also take >> advantage of a lot of >> the products that are great for small scale, such as MySQL. Hello! >> MySQL is downloaded, >> installed, and run, done. It's up to me at this point to offer >> professional services >> that cater to this software. That's where I make my money. If >> Informix is a download >> just like MySQL, and binary-only, no source, that would be just fine. >> The caveat is >> support, you get what you pay for. I think it would be pretty easy >> for me to sell a >> real support contract to just about any SMB I work with for Informix >> support, and I >> get a commission for it. That's the way it should work. >> >> I think if somebody told me I could just get Informix for say $99 USD, >> as the only >> software package, as an IBM Partner, I'd be on board, plop down my >> $99, make a sale >> for IBM, develop applications without the damn timebomb, and stop >> complaining. After >> all if there are 8 products in the grab bag for $800 and I only need >> one, then that's >> $100 right? If I want DB2 I don't even have to pay anything last I >> checked. >> >> -t- >> >> >> Neil Truby wrote: >> > "Obnoxio The Clown" <obnoxio@serendipita.com> wrote in message >> > news:mailman.184.1181772267.13675.informix-list@iiug.org... >> > >> > Neil Truby said: >> > >> >> The fact is that most small businesses can't focus on, and >> therefore don't >> >> want access to, a wide range of products. >> >> If I'm writing a killer app to run on Informix for, say, the >> entertainment >> >> sector, what possible interest is Lotus, or Tivoli, to me? >> > >> >>> This is, I believe, the nub of the problem. Real SMBs (not IBM's >> > definition) don't really give a monkey's left bollock about the >> breadth or >> > depth of IBM's software stack. They have a business problem, they >> need it >> > fixed. None of that other stuff really means anything to potential >> > Informix users. >> > >> > Thanks for the support, but that wasn't quite the point I was making. >> > >> > What I'm trying to say is this: >> > >> > End users might actually find the breadth of IBM's product range, >> its long >> > history and its strong brand reassuring (even if they don't want to >> use much >> > of the range right now, it's nice to know it's there). >> > But SMB end-users are, I would contend, best understood by Business >> Partners >> > that are themselves SMBs. >> > And it is those *partners* who are themselves SMBs who will be >> deterred by >> > the high cost of the "Value Package", partly because US$2,000 is >> peanuts to >> > Morse but not to them, and partly because they are likely to be >> interested >> > in a far narrow product set because they are small. >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Informix-list mailing list >> Informix-list@iiug.org >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > PC Magazine's 2007 editors' choice for best Web mail'award-winning > Windows Live Hotmail. > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 > >