Re: Oracle 10G
Despite the "Oracle 10G" subject, this thread contains no technical database question at all. It is an off-topic debate about whether a university degree should be required for IT/DBA work: one poster argues US employers increasingly demand degrees as an entry filter, while others counter that experience and self-directed learning matter more and that a degree guarantees nothing. UK vs US hiring norms are also contrasted. The discussion ends without agreement, and there is no technical problem or resolution recorded.
Auto-generated by DrWatson from the posts below — may be imperfect; read the full thread.
Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1078351518.99808@yasure>... > Comments in-line. > > Eric Rowell wrote: > > > I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the > > point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's > > this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came > > to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require > > training form a company like yours. > > You wouldn't expect to get into a medical school without an > undergraduate degree would you? Why would you expect a university to > make an exception because the field is IT? > Daniel, The most important thing that anyone can get from a higher education is not the facts learned, but it is the learning process itself. Just as the most important thing that anyone can get from working on a research project is not the facts gained from that research project, it is the learning of how to research. It is pure arrogance to think that the only way to obtain knowledge is to take a class in that topic. If we had followed that guideline then --- well --- where did Marie Curie obtain knowledge? Where did Edison learn about sound and light? History also tells me that the knowledge of the world's brilliant minds did not come by taking classes. It came from people who were seeking knowledge, were questioning the world as it was, and were not afraid to grow.
Daniel Morgan wrote: > mpruet wrote: >> Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message >> news:<1078351518.99808@yasure>... >> >>>Comments in-line. >>> >>>Eric Rowell wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the >>>>point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's >>>>this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came >>>>to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require >>>>training form a company like yours. >>> >>>You wouldn't expect to get into a medical school without an >>>undergraduate degree would you? Why would you expect a university to >>>make an exception because the field is IT? >>> >> >> >> Daniel, >> >> The most important thing that anyone can get from a higher education >> is not the facts learned, but it is the learning process itself. Just >> as the most important thing that anyone can get from working on a >> research project is not the facts gained from that research project, >> it is the learning of how to research. >> >> It is pure arrogance to think that the only way to obtain knowledge is >> to take a class in that topic. If we had followed that guideline then >> --- well --- where did Marie Curie obtain knowledge? Where did Edison >> learn about sound and light? >> >> History also tells me that the knowledge of the world's brilliant >> minds did not come by taking classes. It came from people who were >> seeking knowledge, were questioning the world as it was, and were not >> afraid to grow. > > And you would be correct on all points. Not once did I say a university > degree was the only way. What I said was that more and more employers > are demanding it because they have had their fill of great looking > resumes that don't equate with ability. And I'm not defending their > practice: Just stating the facts as they are. Well, your facts are Just Plain Wrong (tm). I've not had any trouble using my experience to overcome my lack of a degree. And anyone who thinks a degree is any kind of guarantee that they're getting someone useful ... well ... they deserve what they get. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche
mpruet wrote: > Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1078351518.99808@yasure>... > >>Comments in-line. >> >>Eric Rowell wrote: >> >> >>> I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the >>>point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's >>>this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came >>>to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require >>>training form a company like yours. >> >>You wouldn't expect to get into a medical school without an >>undergraduate degree would you? Why would you expect a university to >>make an exception because the field is IT? >> > > > Daniel, > > The most important thing that anyone can get from a higher education > is not the facts learned, but it is the learning process itself. Just > as the most important thing that anyone can get from working on a > research project is not the facts gained from that research project, > it is the learning of how to research. > > It is pure arrogance to think that the only way to obtain knowledge is > to take a class in that topic. If we had followed that guideline then > --- well --- where did Marie Curie obtain knowledge? Where did Edison > learn about sound and light? > > History also tells me that the knowledge of the world's brilliant > minds did not come by taking classes. It came from people who were > seeking knowledge, were questioning the world as it was, and were not > afraid to grow. And you would be correct on all points. Not once did I say a university degree was the only way. What I said was that more and more employers are demanding it because they have had their fill of great looking resumes that don't equate with ability. And I'm not defending their practice: Just stating the facts as they are. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > Well, your facts are Just Plain Wrong (tm). I've not had any trouble using > my experience to overcome my lack of a degree. And anyone who thinks a > degree is any kind of guarantee that they're getting someone useful ... > well ... they deserve what they get. A. You are in the UK not the US Pacific Northwest B. Life does not come with guarantees. Not even for waking up tomorrow. C. Aren't you in marketing? ;-) -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
Daniel Morgan wrote: > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > >> Well, your facts are Just Plain Wrong (tm). I've not had any trouble >> using my experience to overcome my lack of a degree. And anyone who >> thinks a degree is any kind of guarantee that they're getting someone >> useful ... well ... they deserve what they get. > > A. You are in the UK not the US Pacific Northwest Didn't stop _you_ touting your facts as absolute. > B. Life does not come with guarantees. Not even for waking up tomorrow. Well, duh. > C. Aren't you in marketing? ;-) No. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche
"Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:1078445795.713139@yasure... > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > > > Well, your facts are Just Plain Wrong (tm). I've not had any trouble using > > my experience to overcome my lack of a degree. And anyone who thinks a > > degree is any kind of guarantee that they're getting someone useful ... > > well ... they deserve what they get. > > A. You are in the UK not the US Pacific Northwest Perhaps this is an extension of a point I've made previously, of surprise that US-only job hostings always specify a computing degree. This is unusual in the UK: even if a graduate is required a degree in maths, physics (such as I have) or even an arts subject will be acceptable. So I guess your point is that a degree is a guarantee of something useful in the US mainly because it is required by employers, and not necessarily for any inherent worth?
"Neil Truby" <neil.truby@ardenta.com> wrote in message news:c2ibki$1t6tda$1@ID-162943.news.uni-berlin.de... > "Daniel Morgan" <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message > news:1078445795.713139@yasure... > Perhaps this is an extension of a point I've made previously, of surprise > that US-only job hostings always specify a computing degree. This is > unusual in the UK: even if a graduate is required a degree in maths, physics > (such as I have) or even an arts subject will be acceptable. Just in case anyone is reading, I meant to write: " ...even if a graduate is required a degree in maths, physics (such as I have) or even an arts subject will *often* be acceptable."
Neil Truby wrote: > So I guess your point is that a degree is a guarantee of something useful in > the US mainly because it is required by employers, and not necessarily for > any inherent worth? I wouldn't go so far as to say "guarantee of something useful" but it is becoming the entrance requirement to avoid flipping burgers. And while that is not universally true today ... we are close enough to when it will be that you don't need a telescope to see that far ahead. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)
Neil Truby wrote: > Just in case anyone is reading, I meant to write: " ...even if a graduate > is required a degree in maths, physics (such as I have) or even an arts > subject will *often* be acceptable." Correct. Especially math, physics, chemistry, and similar degress that demonstrate mental horsepower and a willingness to invest effort into intellectual challenges. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)