Re: No future for DB2

IBM, the company that invented SQL and relational database, is tied (according to Gartner) for relational database revenue with Oracle. The article that spawned this thread is a cheapshot by a nonentity seeking self-promotion. I can't say much about Mac, but the characteristics identified by Charles Darwin for the survival of a species are inherent in DB2.

the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing great technology but may loose the market. If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals serious and start doing something about it. Superboer. bka schreef: > IBM, the company that invented SQL and relational database, is tied > (according to Gartner) for relational database revenue with Oracle. The > article that spawned this thread is a cheapshot by a nonentity seeking > self-promotion. I can't say much about Mac, but the characteristics > identified by Charles Darwin for the survival of a species are inherent > in DB2.

I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis, American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example. And, in fact, IBM's product and portfolio diversification as well as research funding should be seen as advantages to long-term survival over companies with less diverse product lines and solution lines. Larry Superboer wrote: > the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning > that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing > great technology but may loose the market. > > If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals > serious and start doing something about it. > > Superboer. > > > > bka schreef: > > >>IBM, the company that invented SQL and relational database, is tied >>(according to Gartner) for relational database revenue with Oracle. The >>article that spawned this thread is a cheapshot by a nonentity seeking >>self-promotion. I can't say much about Mac, but the characteristics >>identified by Charles Darwin for the survival of a species are inherent >>in DB2. > >

> the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning > that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing > great technology but may loose the market. > > If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals > serious and start doing something about it. > I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services and supports are needed. IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no longer a great technology by today's standard.

Hmmm. You really need to take another look ... or a closer look at DB2 re ease of use. Larry Bob Jones wrote: >>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning >>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing >>great technology but may loose the market. >> > > >>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals >>serious and start doing something about it. >> > > > I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely > does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services > and supports are needed. > > IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no > longer a great technology by today's standard. > >

> Hmmm. You really need to take another look ... or a closer look at DB2 > re ease of use. > > Larry > > Bob Jones wrote: >>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning >>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing >>>great technology but may loose the market. >>> >> >> >>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals >>>serious and start doing something about it. >>> >> >> >> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software >> surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more >> services and supports are needed. >> >> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is >> no longer a great technology by today's standard. I forgot about DB2 for a moment. It ranks #3 out of 3. That's very good.

Bob Jones wrote: >>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning >>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing >>great technology but may loose the market. >> > > >>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals >>serious and start doing something about it. >> > > > I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software surely > does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more services > and supports are needed. > > IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is no > longer a great technology by today's standard. > > You obviously don't know what you are talking about. 'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard' DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from? Which ranking? Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are. -- Anton Versteeg IBM Netherlands

Anton Versteeg wrote: > You obviously don't know what you are talking about. > 'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard' > DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from? > Which ranking? > Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are. A better question would be ... why would anyone who is a technologist rather than a marketing drone care? I don't make a living off of Oracle selling more licenses than FireBird much less DB2 or Informix. Doesn't affect my ability to put food on the table or keep the boat in the water. When a software company wants me to care about their marketshare ... they will write me a check. Until then all I care about is the number of available jobs and my bill rate. -- Daniel A. Morgan http://www.psoug.org damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Larry wrote: > I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market > share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many > products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end > up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share > leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis, > American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example. Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to Enterprise et al, http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km3609/is_200301/ai_n8624267 in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith, President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L. Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money. Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline deregulation, 1977. "Deregulation will be the greatest thing to happen to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/6/11662/11662-h/11662-h.htm#17 and Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills. jg -- @home.com is bogus. http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/negative-information.html

I didn't say anything about the economic climate of any industry at all. They are actually very good examples. The point (as you seem to have completely missed it) is that when you purchase a product, you most often don't care that your buying from #1 or #2 or #3 in the industry. And being #1 or #2 or #3 is usually good enough to maintain survival. When you make travel plans, you don't ask which carrier leads in market share and you don't care whether you are flying with #3 as opposed to #1. As long as there is a good safety record, it is low in cost, and it gets you there. If you rent a car, you don't care whether you are renting with the market leader. In fact, Avis has been "#2" for many years and has survived just fine. And I'd be willing to bet that outside of business use, you wouldn't rent with Hertz or Avis anyway ... you'd end up with a lower cost company like Alamo ... as long as the price is right. What position in the rental market do you think Alamo is? When was the last time you found out who the market share leader was before buying a coffeemaker? Larry E. Joel Garry wrote: > Larry wrote: > >>I duuno ... don't see any signs that IBM is losing significant market >>share. Look at other examples in various industries ... for many >>products, there are usually at least 2 or 3 or 4 main survivors who end >>up there for the long-term. You don't even have to be the market share >>leader ... just have a significant presence. Hertz/Avis, >>American/United/Delta, Krups/Braun/Cuisinart, pick your example. > > > Man, you know how to pick some bad examples. Hertz/Avis bought by auto > manufacturers to dump unwanted cars, declining market share due to > Enterprise et al, > http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km3609/is_200301/ai_n8624267 > in as bad shape as airlines. American/United/Delta - do you not read > the papers? "These days no one can make money on the goddamn airline > business. The economics represent sheer hell." - C. R. Smith, > President of American Airlines. "A recession is when you have to > tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When > you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business." - Sir > Adam Thomson "This is a nasty, rotten business." - Robert L. > Crandall, CEO & President of American Airlines. "Today, the situation > is exacerbated with costs exceeding revenues at four times the > pre-September 11 rate. Today, we are literally hemorrhaging money. > Clearly this bleeding has to be stopped - and soon - or United will > perish sometime next year." - James Goodwin, chairman and CEO of > United's parent company UAL. The unions of the (at the time) employee > owned company forced his replacement. 17 October, 2001 "I didn't take > this job to preside over a bankruptcy. I refuse to accept that United > Airlines is collateral damage from Sept. 11." - Jack Creighton, new > chairman and CEO of UAL Corporation, 28 October 2001. UAL entered > bankruptcy on 9 December 2002. "You fucking academic eggheads! You > don't know shit. You can't deregulate this industry. You're going to > wreck it. You don't know a goddamn thing!" - Robert L. Crandall, CEO > American Airlines, addressing a Senate lawyer prior to airline > deregulation, 1977. "Deregulation will be the greatest thing to happen > to the airlines since the jet engine." - Richard Ferris, CEO United > Airlines, 1976. "If we went into the funeral business, people would > stop dying." - Martin R. Shugrue, Vice-chairman Pan Am. "I can't > imagine a set of circumstances that would produce Chapter 11 for > Eastern." - Frank Lorenzo "As a businessman, Frank Lorenzo gives > capitalism a bad name." - William F. Buckley "If you would look up > bad labor relations in the dictionary, you would have an American > Airlines logo beside it." - U.S. District Judge Joe Kendall, issuing > a restraining order against an American Airlines APA pilot union sick > out, 10 Feb 1999. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8703311/ Delta about to > croak... Don't know anything about the Germans besides > http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/1/6/6/11662/11662-h/11662-h.htm#17 and > Braun makes a lot of money with shaver cleaning device refills. > > jg > -- > @home.com is bogus. > http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/negative-information.html >

>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning >>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing >>>great technology but may loose the market. >>> >> >> >>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals >>>serious and start doing something about it. >>> >> >> >> I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software >> surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more >> services and supports are needed. >> >> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is >> no longer a great technology by today's standard. > You obviously don't know what you are talking about. > 'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard' > DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from? > Which ranking? > Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are. > Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard, Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion. DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is really not that vague.

Bob Jones wrote: >>>>the article may have some truth in it; may be it's a warning >>>>that IBM is suffering from the Philips syndrome; producing >>>>great technology but may loose the market. >>>> >>> >>> >>>>If that is the case then it is a very good idea to take these signals >>>>serious and start doing something about it. >>>> >>> >>> >>>I am not sure if they are producing good technology. Their software >>>surely does not score high in the ease-of-use department. That's why more >>>services and supports are needed. >>> >>> IMO, AIX is propbably the only good thing come out of IBM. Mainframe is >>>no longer a great technology by today's standard. >> >>You obviously don't know what you are talking about. >>'By todays standard' must be 'by your standard' >>DB2 ranks #1 in many places. So where is your #3 coming from? >>Which ranking? >>Reading your post, I quess one cannot be any more vague than you are. >> > > > Let me be more clear, not just by todays standard, even by 90's standard, > Mainframe is dated. This is a well-known fact, not just my opinion. A well known fact? Based on what? So how come customers are still investing on this 'dated' platform. > > DB2 is #3 in terms of ease-of-use, behind Oracle and SQL Server. Now that's > just my own experience. If you have read previous comments carefully, it is > really not that vague. Ah, finally *facts* change into *opinions* I have used both Oracle and DB2 and I find DB2 a lot easier to use. Ok, I'll be fair , I have used DB2 a lot longer. > > -- Anton Versteeg IBM Netherlands

"Larry" <larry@nospam.net> wrote in message news:SBTJe.19388$_R1.16432@fe11.lga... >I didn't say anything about the economic climate of any industry at all. > They are actually very good examples. > > The point (as you seem to have completely missed it) is that when you > purchase a product, you most often don't care that your buying from #1 > or #2 or #3 in the industry. And being #1 or #2 or #3 is usually good > enough to maintain survival. > > When you make travel plans, you don't ask which carrier leads in market > share and you don't care whether you are flying with #3 as opposed to > #1. As long as there is a good safety record, it is low in cost, and it > gets you there. If you rent a car, you don't care whether you are > renting with the market leader. In fact, Avis has been "#2" for many > years and has survived just fine. And I'd be willing to bet that outside > of business use, you wouldn't rent with Hertz or Avis anyway ... you'd > end up with a lower cost company like Alamo ... as long as the price is > right. What position in the rental market do you think Alamo is? When > was the last time you found out who the market share leader was before > buying a coffeemaker? I am sorry such comparisons with software tools like RDBMS is meaningless. When you buy a air ticket, you are not making long term commitment to the airline. The commitment is only for *that* travel. So one can ignore market share of airlines etc. Buying a software tool is lot more complicated. The software vendor is in some ways your partner in business. Things like financial viability, market share has some bearing in decision making process. Here is an example which should be similar to buying a RDBMS tool: If you are purchasing a car, will you go for a company * whose market share is very low * there are not enuf repair shops who can fix it at a reasonable cost * there is always a fear that the manufacturer may discontinue the car or the company may go belly up.

rkusenet wrote: > Here is an example which should be similar to buying a RDBMS tool: If you > are purchasing a car, will you go for a company > > * whose market share is very low > * there are not enuf repair shops who can fix it at a reasonable cost > * there is always a fear that the manufacturer may discontinue the car > or the company may go belly up. This comparison is equally off. I would not consider buying from two large (German) car companies because they are (a) too expensive, and (b) the quality is not up to the task (anymore). Nevertheless they have quite a large market share - at least in Germany. -- Knut Stolze Information Integration Development IBM Germany / University of Jena

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