RE: MySQL not doing so well in Sun's hands

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 12:20:29 +0000 > From: obnoxio@serendipita.com > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: MySQL not doing so well in Sun's hands > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/27/mysql_slowing_down/ > [SNIP] > Ironic really, because it looks to me that lately IDS seems to be > cracking out innovation at a rate of knots. Boring old IBM doing > something better than exciting open source? Surely not! :o) > Naw the real irony is that Sun could have spent a billion and bought Informix, had they taken the time to plan. Of course at that time, they were more worried about this OS called Linux... ;-) I agree with your comment about IDS. The only problem is that the answer to the age old question...'If we build it, will they come?'... is that it only works in the movies, especially if you're in Iowa and there's nothing else to do. So unless IBM gets off their duff, does some sort of 'marketing', even 'stealth marketing', IDS isn't going to get noticed. Of course, there's a more important issue that you've seemed to have forgotten. InDeep has kept repeating his belief that IBM should target the 'developers' meaning those developers who grab anything that is 'free'. When I say 'free' I mean its another term for 'open source'. This is a perfect example of why it will be an expensive waste of time, money and material. The 'developer' community that InDeep talks about wants a 'free' product. So much so, they're going to fork the distribution in order to get what they want. If the 'developer' community is anything like the 'derby community', there are a lot of people making choices on database technology, and database design who don't know what a database is, or how to use it. So not only are you going to have to market your product, but also educate your audience. Maybe C.J. Date should get on board. (Isn't he an IBM alumn?) You want to win, you need to target your audience and you need to focus your energy. The best thing to come out of IBM's marketing team is the support for the IIUG's conference. (Oh snap! Now the IIUG is going to claim that they are independent of IBM. :-P ) Look, 2009 is going to be an interesting year. But hey! What do I know? I'm still betting on my two white lab rats will come up with a plan to take over the world. (*Snarf*) -G _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > InDeep has kept repeating his belief that IBM should target the > 'developers' meaning those developers who grab anything that is 'free'. > When I say 'free' I mean its another term for 'open source'. > Free software does not need to include open source. I debated this ad nauseum 10+ years ago when we were trying to get anything Informix on Linux. SE was released as a free software on Linux, but without its source code. The timing was almost lost on that one. It was an instructive moment as we sit here 10 years later, with little to show for all that has transpired since then. Unless there is momentum in the market for a product, all the chatter is meaningless. All the great opportunities that come along are never taken, and thus, the product whithers on the vine. > This is a perfect example of why it will be an expensive waste of time, > money and material. At least Sun _is_ doing something with MySQL, more than you can say about IBM really doing anything with Informix other than some nice enhancements nobody will ever know about. MySQL _has_ a market, Informix does not. It's also not a waste of time, money, material. The key is that MySQL _has_ a market, a very _entrenched_ market, with a solid, immovable developer base. This is why it will succeed in spite of Sun not moving fast enough. In fact, even if Sun screwed up royally, the product will live on--it would be impossible to get rid of it. This has been one of my principle, guiding lights about Informix, and I think IBM understands this all too well to allow it to be a free product, with optional support. They would never be able to keep it quiet once the free version is out there, no source code. MySQL has proven this. Imagine Informix becoming immortal like MySQL has become. Even if Sun tries to shut it up they can't! ( Editors Note: Watch MySQL gain all the features Informix has in the next few years. There won't be any need for Informix! ) > The 'developer' community that InDeep talks about wants a 'free' > product. Free product, not necessarily source code. These two things don't have to be locked together. However, the flexibility MySQL source code offers you is unparalleled in other database products. Being able to customize the installation is quite nice, but certainly not a must-have. MySQL's biggest limitation is its scaling. But over the next few years this will be something they improve on. > So much so, they're going to fork the distribution in order to > get what they want. If the 'developer' community is anything like the > 'derby community', there are a lot of people making choices on database > technology, and database design who don't know what a database is, or > how to use it. So not only are you going to have to market your product, > but also educate your audience. Maybe C.J. Date should get on board. > (Isn't he an IBM alumn?) > There are a lot of people who make database choices that choose Oracle too. It's not necessarily because Oracle is good, just as the article pointed out, it's good enough and fast enough. And a better choice than SQL-Server or other products. Brand, market presence, market share, and mind share are all essential ingredients for product life, otherwise it doesn't live in the market. "This is the same lesson that Debian hasn't yet learned from Ubuntu: fast and good-enough always beats slow and correct." > You want to win, you need to target your audience and you need to focus > your energy. Gumpy, I've had a lot of rewrites of this post, and several others I deleted because I know in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter anymore, nobody really cares, Informix will never go anywhere as long as IBM owns it. I've always been hopeful for things to change, but having only one life to live, you have to realize at some point some things are never meant to be. Informix is like a family member in a coma, eventually fewer and fewer people show up at the hospital, and then the funeral comes. It has been 10 years since Informix-on-Linux, and most of that gas evaporated rather quickly, all that is left are some memories, most of them I'd like to forget. I've evolved and moved on, not totally of my own choice, but because of the market. The market has moved on too. It has been a good lesson for me to stay diversified, recognize trends, and moving when my instincts tell me to. I'd love to help Informix Marketing, but I'm not sure even if they did the right things now that it would matter. If I were in charge I'd have to fire most if not all of the marketing department, there is so much to be fixed I wonder if it is even possible to see Informix become something. Let's see where Informix is 5 or 10 years from now. I'm betting it will still be limping along, if at all, nowhere in the market. Dedicated posters here will offer up their solutions, wit, and banter, and still, Informix will either be completely dead, or right where it is today, nowhere. All the sparring and academic discussions will change nothing. Happy Holidays to all of you. I'm sure Informix will be there for a lot of you, but _nothing_ out there in the market I work in tells me Informix is even a product or solution to choose from. Keep in touch. I may drop in from time to time, but it won't be as InDeep, and it won't be any time soon. Have a great future and Happy New Year! Tim tim->datad->com

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:59:21 -0800 > From: indeep@intoodeeptobetrue.com > Subject: Re: MySQL not doing so well in Sun's hands > To: informix-list@iiug.org > > Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > Free software does not need to include open source. I debated this ad > nauseum 10+ years ago when we were trying to get anything Informix on > Linux. SE was released as a free software on Linux, but without its > source code. The timing was almost lost on that one. It was an > instructive moment as we sit here 10 years later, with little to show > for all that has transpired since then. > That's actually a good point. Informix tossed out a 'freebie' to the Linux community. Only a non starter. This isn't because SE is a bad product, or unpopular. Had it had decent marketing, it would have killed MySQL even before it got off the ground. Why use an OpenSource when you can get a 'supported' product like SE. Ooops! I made a mistake. I'm not sure *if* Informix was supporting the freebie rather than just tossing a tasty nibble to the Linux community. And that is a good point. If you're going to put a product out, even as a 'freebie', it has to have routine support and updates. Maybe not as much as a regular supported product, but enough to take care of any nasty surprises and to also give the community some level of comfort. Has IBM done this with the IIUG's version of IDS? I know that there's a new release every so often when there's a new 'dot' release, but are there any incremental support versions put out there? (Not that IDS has any major/nasty security bugs like Oracle. ;-) > Unless there is momentum in the market for a product, all the chatter is > meaningless. All the great opportunities that come along are never > taken, and thus, the product whithers on the vine. > Now its slowly starting to sink in. You're not going to capture the chatter and mindshare that you have with MySQL. Most of the Opensource community shun big companies like IBM, even though IBM put out Eclipse and Cloudscape/Derby/JavaDB to the opensource community. Since you want to make the largest impact with the minimal amount of effort, you need to target your audience and focus your collective efforts. But that will never happen because there are too many people who do not comprehent the zen art of business development. ;-) You attack using the path of least resistence. > > This is a perfect example of why it will be an expensive waste of time, > > money and material. > No. Its only a waste of time,effort and money if they attempt your approach of hitting the masses head on. You don't want to do that. Sun is trying that and its going to cost them dearly. Sun is trying to build a balance between hardware/software/services. Unfortunately, they've already screwed that one up and blew a ton of cash on MySQL. They would have been better off buying Greenplum for their money. It would have been a better fit for their portfolio. Unfortunately they didn't think the problem through before they pulled the trigger. Note: Most of the "OpenSource" companies are merely incubators that can not sustain a company based on their products alone. At a certain point, they need to either cut and run, or sell out to a bigger company. Now there are a couple of standouts, however if you do the math, they are clearly in the minority. > At least Sun _is_ doing something with MySQL, more than you can say > about IBM really doing anything with Informix other than some nice > enhancements nobody will ever know about. MySQL _has_ a market, > Informix does not. > No. IBM is still doing stuff with IDS. There were some obligations made by Janet that meant that IDS would be supported and enhanced. She could not kill the product directly. (Note: That didn't mean she couldn't kill the product indirectly. ;-) IDS is getting a lot of new features and enhancements. If only they revived 'arrowhead' and brought in more of the shared nothing architecture from XPS. Ooops that would take away LUW marketshare from DB2. Sorry, my bad. ;-) Sun is trying to do something with MySQL. Unfortunately its fragmenting their base. This could be a non-issue, however, I don't think so. Sun is trying to transform themselves from a hardware company in to a full service company. Unfortunately the change is only superficial and they are still a hardware company. You can compare this to Ambush making a position statement about the databases, while IBM's S&D ignore it and continue to go about their daily lives business as usual. Timmy its good that you came out of your shell. Have fun on the left coast. -G _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008

InDeep wrote: > > Happy Holidays to all of you. Just out of idle curiosity, is there any reason why you didn't say "Merry Christmas"? >:o) -- Cheers, Obnoxio The Clown http://obotheclown.blogspot.com

On 27 Dec, 19:59, Ian Michael Gumby <im_gu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:59:21 -0800 > > From: ind...@intoodeeptobetrue.com > > Subject: Re: MySQL not doing so well in Sun's hands > > To: informix-l...@iiug.org > > > Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > Free software does not need to include open source.  I debated this ad > > nauseum 10+ years ago when we were trying to get anything Informix on > > Linux.  SE was released as a free software on Linux, but without its > > source code.  The timing was almost lost on that one.  It was an > > instructive moment as we sit here 10 years later, with little to show > > for all that has transpired since then. > > That's actually a good point. Informix tossed out a 'freebie' to the Linux community. Only a non starter. This isn't because SE is a bad product, or unpopular. Had it had decent marketing, it would have killed MySQL even before it got off the ground. Why use an OpenSource when you can get a 'supported' product like SE. Ooops! I made a mistake. I'm not sure *if* Informix was supporting the freebie rather than just tossing a tasty nibble to the Linux community. > > And that is a good point. If you're going to put a product out, even as a 'freebie', it has to have routine support and updates. Maybe not as much as a regular supported product, but enough to take care of any nasty surprises and to also give the community some level of comfort. Has IBM done this with the IIUG's version of IDS? I know that there's a new release every so often when there's a new 'dot' release, but are there any incremental support versions put out there? (Not that IDS has any major/nasty security bugs like Oracle. ;-) > > > Unless there is momentum in the market for a product, all the chatter is > > meaningless.  All the great opportunities that come along are never > > taken, and thus, the product whithers on the vine. > > Now its slowly starting to sink in. You're not going to capture the chatter and mindshare that you have with MySQL. Most of the Opensource community shun big companies like IBM, even though IBM put out Eclipse and Cloudscape/Derby/JavaDB to the opensource community. > > Since you want to make the largest impact with the minimal amount of effort, you need to target your audience and focus your collective efforts. > But that will never happen because there are too many people who do not comprehent the zen art of business development. ;-)  You attack using the path of least resistence. > > > > This is a perfect example of why it will be an expensive waste of time, > > > money and material. > > No. Its only a waste of time,effort and money if they attempt your approach of hitting the masses head on. You don't want to do that. Sun is trying that and its going to cost them dearly. Sun is trying to build a balance between hardware/software/services. Unfortunately, they've already screwed that one up and blew a ton of cash on MySQL. They would have been better off buying Greenplum for their money. It would have been a better fit for their portfolio. Unfortunately they didn't think the problem through before they pulled the trigger. > > Note: Most of the "OpenSource" companies are merely incubators that can not sustain a company based on their products alone. At a certain point, they need to either cut and run, or sell out to a bigger company. Now there are a couple of standouts, however if you do the math, they are clearly in the minority. > > > At least Sun _is_ doing something with MySQL, more than you can say > > about IBM really doing anything with Informix other than some nice > > enhancements nobody will ever know about.  MySQL _has_ a market, > > Informix does not. > > No. > > IBM is still doing stuff with IDS. There were some obligations made by Janet that meant that IDS would be supported and enhanced. She could not kill the product directly. (Note: That didn't mean she couldn't kill the product indirectly. ;-) > IDS is getting a lot of new features and enhancements. If only they revived 'arrowhead' and brought in more of the shared nothing architecture from XPS. Ooops that would take away LUW marketshare from DB2. Sorry, my bad. ;-) > > Sun is trying to do something with MySQL. Unfortunately its fragmenting their base.  This could be a non-issue, however, I don't think so. Sun is trying to transform themselves from a hardware company in to a full service company. Unfortunately the change is only superficial and they are still a hardware company. You can compare this to Ambush making a position statement about the databases, while IBM's S&D ignore it and continue to go about their daily lives business as usual. > > Timmy its good that you came out of your shell. > > Have fun on the left coast. > > -G > > _________________________________________________________________ > It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster.http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_b... Yes I wish they revived arrowhead and XPS but I doubt that will happen...

Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > InDeep wrote: >> >> Happy Holidays to all of you. > > Just out of idle curiosity, is there any reason why you didn't say > "Merry Christmas"? >:o) > OK so out of idle ramble he writes... 1. It really was a rare moment of cultural and social responsibility for me, not to mention sheer laziness to wish everyone Happy Holidays. 2. It's much safer to say Happy Holidays than Merry Christmas. 3. I have kin that are not Christian. 4. Christmas in the USA is more about commercial consumerism than religion and we've had to suffer through the past 8 years of a religious right that has pretty much ruined the holidays for a lot of people, myself included. The more I think about Christianity the more I think about the religious right, and it starts to piss me off, thus even more reason not to want to say Merry Christmas. I pray for UFOs to show up, and tell everyone Jesus was a lizard just to piss off the Christians who for the most part have ruined this country. 5. Merry Christmas sounds somewhat disingenuous considering the economic catastrophe we are living through right now. I look over my shoulder every day wondering when the news is coming that "today is your last day, pack your bag, and thanks, your check is in the mail" because the client suddenly exercises their corporate greed and just decides it's convenient to layoff and go with more offshoring, riding the wave so to speak, or because they're constantly pissed off about something, god what next. Certainly a time of merriment is coming but this month ain't it. 6. I work on site with a multinational, multicultural client that has people that may not ( well some of them actually do ) appreciate me saying Merry Christmas any more than I would appreciate some of their holiday observances. In fact I had to be on call Christmas Eve, and my c*** of a client actually sent me hate mail Christmas Day trying to ruin my day wondering why I didn't see a page that came in around 3am in the morning for some error message that wasn't even important--even though I wasn't awake or paid to sit up all f'ing night monitoring their crappy jboss/oracle app that constantly runs out of memory... ( You had to ask right. ) FWIW I didn't do any Christmas shopping, sent no holiday cards, and instead looked at the holiday for simply getting some much needed time off away from my latest client, who has reinforced ever more my desire to get as far away from IT as possible, and return to my roots in photography, the arts, and film. After Obama gets in to his job, and gives everyone an idea of where things are heading then maybe we'll have something to be merry about. In the meantime... Happy Holidays! *<8oD