Re: No future for DB2
Noons wrote: > Sure. But there is still a very clear limit: going back to > the volumes bit I mentioned above. Those of us who still have > to process serious amounts of data in as little time as possible > are still using good old C/C++, shell scripts, perl here and there > and maybe in a moment of light-headed enthusiasm, python/php. (Now, > THOSE are interesting languages!) Funny, I thought assembly language to rules supreme. Layers of abstraction: microcoding, assembly, C/C++ Java ... Folks are debating DBA skills in these forums. Ever tried to get C/C++ skills? It's a b**** to get a good C programmer nowadays. Certainty the kids who wrote C when they were 16 and hit the job with 10 years experience don't exist anymore. Point being, you wouldn't go back to micro-coding, you wouldn't go back to assembly. Too expensive in labour, too unwieldy. C/C++ is already turning into a niche skill. The abstraction layer just keeps on rising because Moore's law and inflation favours throwing Hz and bytes at any problem over brain. > Because very clearly Java, J2EE and XML technologies haven't > got a SINGLE chance in heck of ever coping with serious volumes > and STILL remain cost-effective. And that has been made > painfully clear to me beyond any doubt: nowadays that I have to > cope again with seriously large data volumes instead of the total > JOKE of Java "apps" I've had to deal with for the last 4 years. See above. You, I, we are too expensive. We expect our salaries to rise. Cheers Serge -- Serge Rielau DB2 SQL Compiler Development IBM Toronto Lab
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 29/07/2005 8:52 PM: > Funny, I thought assembly language to rules supreme. That too, but I'm not a masochist... Done my time with 360 and 370 Assembler thank you very much: I leave that for the zOS DB2 programmers. ;) > > Folks are debating DBA skills in these forums. Ever tried to get C/C++ > skills? It's a b**** to get a good C programmer nowadays. Actually, they are pretty easy to find in Australia. And cheap, too. Same goes for VB and C# programmers, BTW. Nowadays it's harder to find a J2EE guy than anything else, as a matter of fact. > Certainty the kids who wrote C when they were 16 and hit the job with 10 > years experience don't exist anymore. Yeah but they were never any good. I'm talking about professional programmers. Not script kiddies writing TSRs for fun. > Point being, you wouldn't go back to micro-coding, you wouldn't go back > to assembly. Too expensive in labour, too unwieldy. > C/C++ is already turning into a niche skill. Begging your pardon, that's the biggest pile of marketing dung out there. I understand it's not sourced from you. But it's totally untrue. Which language do you reckon the ENTIRE edifice of GNU and open source software is built on? And Linux? And Apache? And most of the opensource appservers? And just about every other piece of commercial software for the PC environment? Adobe software, for example? Symantec? The entire edifice of Windoze/SS/Microsoft Office software? DotNot itself? Java/J2EE??? Pah!! Freakin' NO WAY in the darn world!!! Do you think there is ONE LINE of Java in ANY search engine out there? It's ALL C and C++, Apache, opensource OS and s/w and script languages, Serge. I'm in the thick of it now, I know what I see. 3/4 of all that crap you hear about Java/J2EE and internet technology is TOTALLY and UTTERLY false: a complete hoax! Don't believe the marketing BULL that Java has taken over the world: it's the biggest hoax I've ever seen! DotNot and c# alone have MORE developers than ALL the Java dungheap! > The abstraction layer just keeps on rising because Moore's law and > inflation favours throwing Hz and bytes at any problem over brain. You can't throw Hz at a J2EE app and expect it to run well. Believe me, I've seen that approach daily. For 4 looong years. It never worked, not even ONCE!!! I've seen piddly apps with less than 200 tables in them throw a big iron server (name with-held but it has 3 letters) completely out the window. The darn thing is so moronically inefficient it doesn't matter how much hardware you throw at it, it just WON'T work with any SIGNIFICANTLY large app. > See above. You, I, we are too expensive. We expect our salaries to rise. Nope. Wrong again. Middle age experienced techos are a dime a dozen and dirt cheap compared to snotty kids who expect to be on the way to the 5th million by age 28. Besides, the middle age mob IS experienced, has had ALL the training they need and has a work ethic that no modern snotty kid can match. And it can learn c# dirt easy. We are dirt cheap nowadays, Serge. We don't need expensive training, we can read a book and make sense of it, we're past the age of raising babies or taking long weekends on the booze. The Java mob doesn't stand a hope in hell against that: their learning curve for anything is ten times as high and expensive. Don't believe the marketing crap you hear. It's all rubbish peddled by IDE and snake-oil vendors. DotNot beats the sweet bejesus off J2EE, any time you might care to compare them with anything slightly more complex than a moronic shopping cart. And there is very little Java in it, if any. Which do you reckon is gonna win, something that takes 2 days and a mouse to learn, or something that requires 4000 pages of just the basic user guide? I was told many times over the last 4 years that without Java I couldn't find a job anywhere. Complete hoax. Once I got terminally pissed-off with the pile of rubbish I was being fed at an IBM VAR and started looking, took me two months to find one. Can't complain. And no, I didn't take a pay cut. Quite the opposite. Then again, I never charged the silly small fortunes of the y2k era... -- Cheers Nuno Souto in sunny Sydney, Australia wizofoz2k@yahoo.com.au.nospam
"Serge Rielau" <srielau@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message news:3kug55F10ekpvU1@individual.net... > Noons wrote: > > Sure. But there is still a very clear limit: going back to > > the volumes bit I mentioned above. Those of us who still have > > to process serious amounts of data in as little time as possible > > are still using good old C/C++, shell scripts, perl here and there > > and maybe in a moment of light-headed enthusiasm, python/php. (Now, > > THOSE are interesting languages!) > Funny, I thought assembly language to rules supreme. > Layers of abstraction: > microcoding, > assembly, > C/C++ > Java > ... > > Folks are debating DBA skills in these forums. Ever tried to get C/C++ > skills? It's a b**** to get a good C programmer nowadays. > Certainty the kids who wrote C when they were 16 and hit the job with 10 > years experience don't exist anymore. Well, I fit that description -- I guess that's why IBM hired me! > Point being, you wouldn't go back to micro-coding, you wouldn't go back > to assembly. Too expensive in labour, too unwieldy. > C/C++ is already turning into a niche skill. > The abstraction layer just keeps on rising because Moore's law and > inflation favours throwing Hz and bytes at any problem over brain. It's also a management issue. Managing 10Mloc of C code is tedious. But a set of 1000 Java "objects" is somewhat easier, at least from a conceptual level. This is the force that is driving Java app servers with JSP/servlet technology in the industry today, and is the reason why WebSphere and the Apache group's products (Jakarta, Tomcat, etc) and countable others exist. XML fits in here in a simliar vein but is being driven into the DBMS products directly instead of being handled by a separate product that separates the presentation from the data. -- Matt Emmerton
Noons wrote: > Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 29/07/2005 8:52 PM: > >> Funny, I thought assembly language to rules supreme. > > > That too, but I'm not a masochist... Done my time with > 360 and 370 Assembler thank you very much: I leave that > for the zOS DB2 programmers. ;) > >> >> Folks are debating DBA skills in these forums. Ever tried to get C/C++ >> skills? It's a b**** to get a good C programmer nowadays. > > > Actually, they are pretty easy to find in Australia. And cheap, too. > Same goes for VB and C# programmers, BTW. Nowadays it's harder to > find a J2EE guy than anything else, as a matter of fact. > >> Certainty the kids who wrote C when they were 16 and hit the job with >> 10 years experience don't exist anymore. > > > Yeah but they were never any good. I'm talking about professional > programmers. Not script kiddies writing TSRs for fun. > >> Point being, you wouldn't go back to micro-coding, you wouldn't go >> back to assembly. Too expensive in labour, too unwieldy. >> C/C++ is already turning into a niche skill. > > > Begging your pardon, that's the biggest pile of marketing dung > out there. I understand it's not sourced from you. But it's > totally untrue. > > Which language do you reckon the ENTIRE edifice of GNU and open > source software is built on? And Linux? And Apache? And most of > the opensource appservers? And just about every other piece of > commercial software for the PC environment? Adobe software, > for example? Symantec? The entire edifice of Windoze/SS/Microsoft > Office software? DotNot itself? > > Java/J2EE??? Pah!! Freakin' NO WAY in the darn world!!! > > Do you think there is ONE LINE of Java in ANY search engine > out there? It's ALL C and C++, Apache, opensource OS and s/w and > script languages, Serge. I'm in the thick of it now, I know what I > see. 3/4 of all that crap you hear about Java/J2EE and internet > technology is TOTALLY and UTTERLY false: a complete hoax! > > Don't believe the marketing BULL that Java has taken over the world: > it's the biggest hoax I've ever seen! DotNot and c# alone have > MORE developers than ALL the Java dungheap! > >> The abstraction layer just keeps on rising because Moore's law and >> inflation favours throwing Hz and bytes at any problem over brain. > > > You can't throw Hz at a J2EE app and expect it to run well. > Believe me, I've seen that approach daily. For 4 looong years. > It never worked, not even ONCE!!! > I've seen piddly apps with less than 200 tables in them > throw a big iron server (name with-held but it has 3 letters) > completely out the window. The darn thing is so moronically > inefficient it doesn't matter how much hardware you throw at it, > it just WON'T work with any SIGNIFICANTLY large app. > >> See above. You, I, we are too expensive. We expect our salaries to rise. > > > Nope. Wrong again. Middle age experienced techos are > a dime a dozen and dirt cheap compared to snotty kids who > expect to be on the way to the 5th million by age 28. > > Besides, the middle age mob IS experienced, has had ALL > the training they need and has a work ethic that no > modern snotty kid can match. And it can learn c# dirt easy. > We are dirt cheap nowadays, Serge. We don't need expensive > training, we can read a book and make sense of it, we're past > the age of raising babies or taking long weekends on the booze. > > The Java mob doesn't stand a hope in hell against that: > their learning curve for anything is ten times as high > and expensive. Don't believe the marketing crap you hear. > It's all rubbish peddled by IDE and snake-oil vendors. > > DotNot beats the sweet bejesus off J2EE, any time you might > care to compare them with anything slightly more complex than a > moronic shopping cart. And there is very little Java in it, > if any. > > Which do you reckon is gonna win, something that takes 2 days > and a mouse to learn, or something that requires 4000 pages > of just the basic user guide? > > I was told many times over the last 4 years that without Java > I couldn't find a job anywhere. Complete hoax. Once I got > terminally pissed-off with the pile of rubbish I was being fed > at an IBM VAR and started looking, took me two months to find > one. Can't complain. And no, I didn't take a pay cut. > Quite the opposite. Then again, I never charged the silly > small fortunes of the y2k era... > Amen! I see one or two Java jobs occasionally now and then, almost never. Don't know where the shops are that are using Java, and most certainly don't see any commercial applications using it. I have seen a couple of file-manager-applets, but not much else, or installation programs. Maybe inside intranet apps, but even there never heard of many. If there are commercial applications, they are either C++ or scripted like PHP, Perl, ASP, or C#. The rest what Noons said. :-)
Data Goob wrote: > Noons wrote: > >> Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 29/07/2005 8:52 PM: >> >>> Funny, I thought assembly language to rules supreme. >> >> >> >> That too, but I'm not a masochist... Done my time with >> 360 and 370 Assembler thank you very much: I leave that >> for the zOS DB2 programmers. ;) >> >>> >>> Folks are debating DBA skills in these forums. Ever tried to get >>> C/C++ skills? It's a b**** to get a good C programmer nowadays. >> >> >> >> Actually, they are pretty easy to find in Australia. And cheap, too. >> Same goes for VB and C# programmers, BTW. Nowadays it's harder to >> find a J2EE guy than anything else, as a matter of fact. >> >>> Certainty the kids who wrote C when they were 16 and hit the job with >>> 10 years experience don't exist anymore. >> >> >> >> Yeah but they were never any good. I'm talking about professional >> programmers. Not script kiddies writing TSRs for fun. >> >>> Point being, you wouldn't go back to micro-coding, you wouldn't go >>> back to assembly. Too expensive in labour, too unwieldy. >>> C/C++ is already turning into a niche skill. >> >> >> >> Begging your pardon, that's the biggest pile of marketing dung >> out there. I understand it's not sourced from you. But it's >> totally untrue. >> >> Which language do you reckon the ENTIRE edifice of GNU and open >> source software is built on? And Linux? And Apache? And most of >> the opensource appservers? And just about every other piece of >> commercial software for the PC environment? Adobe software, >> for example? Symantec? The entire edifice of Windoze/SS/Microsoft >> Office software? DotNot itself? >> >> Java/J2EE??? Pah!! Freakin' NO WAY in the darn world!!! >> >> Do you think there is ONE LINE of Java in ANY search engine >> out there? It's ALL C and C++, Apache, opensource OS and s/w and >> script languages, Serge. I'm in the thick of it now, I know what I >> see. 3/4 of all that crap you hear about Java/J2EE and internet >> technology is TOTALLY and UTTERLY false: a complete hoax! >> >> Don't believe the marketing BULL that Java has taken over the world: >> it's the biggest hoax I've ever seen! DotNot and c# alone have >> MORE developers than ALL the Java dungheap! >> >>> The abstraction layer just keeps on rising because Moore's law and >>> inflation favours throwing Hz and bytes at any problem over brain. >> >> >> >> You can't throw Hz at a J2EE app and expect it to run well. >> Believe me, I've seen that approach daily. For 4 looong years. >> It never worked, not even ONCE!!! >> I've seen piddly apps with less than 200 tables in them >> throw a big iron server (name with-held but it has 3 letters) >> completely out the window. The darn thing is so moronically >> inefficient it doesn't matter how much hardware you throw at it, >> it just WON'T work with any SIGNIFICANTLY large app. >> >>> See above. You, I, we are too expensive. We expect our salaries to rise. >> >> >> >> Nope. Wrong again. Middle age experienced techos are >> a dime a dozen and dirt cheap compared to snotty kids who >> expect to be on the way to the 5th million by age 28. >> >> Besides, the middle age mob IS experienced, has had ALL >> the training they need and has a work ethic that no >> modern snotty kid can match. And it can learn c# dirt easy. >> We are dirt cheap nowadays, Serge. We don't need expensive >> training, we can read a book and make sense of it, we're past >> the age of raising babies or taking long weekends on the booze. >> >> The Java mob doesn't stand a hope in hell against that: >> their learning curve for anything is ten times as high >> and expensive. Don't believe the marketing crap you hear. >> It's all rubbish peddled by IDE and snake-oil vendors. >> >> DotNot beats the sweet bejesus off J2EE, any time you might >> care to compare them with anything slightly more complex than a >> moronic shopping cart. And there is very little Java in it, >> if any. >> >> Which do you reckon is gonna win, something that takes 2 days >> and a mouse to learn, or something that requires 4000 pages >> of just the basic user guide? >> >> I was told many times over the last 4 years that without Java >> I couldn't find a job anywhere. Complete hoax. Once I got >> terminally pissed-off with the pile of rubbish I was being fed >> at an IBM VAR and started looking, took me two months to find >> one. Can't complain. And no, I didn't take a pay cut. >> Quite the opposite. Then again, I never charged the silly >> small fortunes of the y2k era... >> > Amen! > > I see one or two Java jobs occasionally now and then, almost > never. Don't know where the shops are that are using Java, and > most certainly don't see any commercial applications using it. > I have seen a couple of file-manager-applets, but not much > else, or installation programs. Maybe inside intranet apps, > but even there never heard of many. > > If there are commercial applications, they are either C++ or > scripted like PHP, Perl, ASP, or C#. > > The rest what Noons said. > > :-) Again the deciding factor may be geography. I see a lot of Java here in the US Pacific Northwest. See a lot of .NET too ... but the interest in .NET seems to be waning and interest in PHP increasing. -- Daniel A. Morgan http://www.psoug.org damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)