EGL demo afterthoughts (long)

Hi all! I've just been watching an EGL demo by Tom Chastain, from IBM Labs, in an event called Infobahn, in Lisbon. I must confess I'm a bit disappointed. We've worked with 4GL since the 80's and we work with Java since late 90's. We've been able to keep away from major detours called "4GL for Windows", "New Era" (this one fooled us for some time), 4J's, Querix, etc. We were expecting the "real thing"... And the real thing should have had, for starters: 1. Full (I mean *full*) 4GL compatibility (syntax, file format, command line) 2. Object-orientation 3. Java integration (like with C in older versions) 4. Windows & web browser execution Of course, it would be nice to have also: * an IDE (eclipse is a good choice) * multiple simultaneous connections * more instructions to send mail, read/write files, parse XML, etc. I sincerely don't understand why this has been so difficult. Let's see: 1. Rewriting the compiler it's not so difficult. Several companies have done it, and there is even an open source project that has done it too. Doing it in Java wouldn't be harder 2. Object orientation has been already done in New Era , keeping (incomplete) compatibility with the original 4GL. 3. Java integration comes easy after the first two 4. Running in Windows has already been done in "4GL for Windows" (are the 'O' guys smarter?) Now we've been hearing the EGL spin for some time, about the "New Informix 4GL", and we are very interested, of course. But unfortunately the first demos of the product are here and EGL is not what we expected. Let's see why: * 4GL is converted into a different, uglier, language, in witch SQL is not part of the syntax, it is "escaped" like in ESQL-C or SQL/J * Windows and Browser/applet direct usage is not possible (yet?), only Web-HTML (with manual conversion of forms and input?) * Heavy emphasis is placed on Visual editor and JSF, as if any 4GL programmer cares about it or wants to learn it * The IDE is very powerful but is also very complex Well, IBM, try again!... I'd suggest these steps: * Creating a real 4GL layer to edit/compile/debug, hiding EGL underneath or generating Java directly, with no need for conversion tools * Creating a Java GUI that runs in Windows and in a browser as an applet * Extending INPUT to handle JSF forms (for the very few programmers that want to use this fine technology) * Extending the syntax to do OO (see Python for easy OO) and let Java Objects be used from 4GL In summary: 4GL is a simple, powerful, language, in a simple environment. Simplicity is key. Let me simplify your job and tell you what I'd like to see in the next EGL presentation: 1. Start with a 4GL program with a form and a report 2. Run a shell and type "newfglpc program.4gl" - creating program.jar - and then run "newfglrun program" and show a window with the program running in GUI mode 3. Then, run "newfglpc --web program.4gl" - creating a .war, this time - and then drop the warfile in an appserver; then go to a URL like "http://server/4gl/program"; and show it run on the browser with the exact same look&feel that in GUI mode. 4. And then, after establishing that the "New Informix 4GL" can really substitute on the old one, only then, very carefully, the demo could go on about JSF, app servers, complex IDE's (editing and debugging 4GL directly), etc., so that nobody is scared. ;-) Am I expecting too much? Is it not possible? Is it not profitable? Anyway, I hope this helps and I'm sorry for any imprecision. Fernando -- Fernando Fernandez http://www.moredata.pt sending to informix-list

Well... I've been at the same event, and I have some comments. I should make clear that my view on this may be influenced by my current employer :) Nevertheless, this are my _personal_ opinions... Here goes: Fernando Fernandez wrote: > Hi all! > > I've just been watching an EGL demo by Tom Chastain, from IBM Labs, in > an event called Infobahn, in Lisbon. > I wouldn't call it an EGL demo... We've saw an .avi of basically a very simple 4GL batch progam being converted to EGL. This conversion was done by the upcoming 4GL to EGL converter. There was no focus on the IDE or even on the EGL language itself. > I must confess I'm a bit disappointed. > > We've worked with 4GL since the 80's and we work with Java since late > 90's. We've been able to keep away from major detours called "4GL for > Windows", "New Era" (this one fooled us for some time), 4J's, Querix, > etc. We were expecting the "real thing"... > > And the real thing should have had, for starters: > > 1. Full (I mean *full*) 4GL compatibility (syntax, file format, > command line) > 2. Object-orientation > 3. Java integration (like with C in older versions) > 4. Windows & web browser execution > > Of course, it would be nice to have also: > > * an IDE (eclipse is a good choice) > * multiple simultaneous connections > * more instructions to send mail, read/write files, parse XML, etc. > > I sincerely don't understand why this has been so difficult. Let's see: > > 1. Rewriting the compiler it's not so difficult. Several companies > have done it, and there is even an open source project that has > done it too. Doing it in Java wouldn't be harder > 2. Object orientation has been already done in New Era , keeping > (incomplete) compatibility with the original 4GL. > 3. Java integration comes easy after the first two > 4. Running in Windows has already been done in "4GL for Windows" (are > the 'O' guys smarter?) > Let me point out some facts and opinions, that we can like or not: 1- EGL wasn't mean to accept 4GL syntax. EGL is a much bigger picture than 4GL (more on this later) 2- For people who want an OO language, there are plenty out there... Java is the most noticeable one. 3- EGL environment has Java integration. You can call Java from EGL and EGL from Java. 4- AFAIK EGL will allow yout to have multiple connections, to different DBs 5- Since you can call Java from EGL, sending mails, parsing XML etc. should be easy to do (if you have Java knowledge). Read and write files is included. > Now we've been hearing the EGL spin for some time, about the "New > Informix 4GL", and we are very interested, of course. But unfortunately > the first demos of the product are here and EGL is not what we expected. > Let's see why: > > * 4GL is converted into a different, uglier, language, in witch SQL > is not part of the syntax, it is "escaped" like in ESQL-C or SQL/J > * Windows and Browser/applet direct usage is not possible (yet?), > only Web-HTML (with manual conversion of forms and input?) > * Heavy emphasis is placed on Visual editor and JSF, as if any 4GL > programmer cares about it or wants to learn it > * The IDE is very powerful but is also very complex > The "uglier language" is EGL itself... I wouldn't say it's uggly... It sure isn't 4GL... But anyone with a reasonable knowledge of 4GL or C will find it at least very "familiar". It has the usual procedural language constructs... The complexity of the IDE is a direct consequence of it's potencial... As I said earlier, EGL is a much bigger picture than 4GL... > Well, IBM, try again!... I'd suggest these steps: > > * Creating a real 4GL layer to edit/compile/debug, hiding EGL > underneath or generating Java directly, with no need for > conversion tools > * Creating a Java GUI that runs in Windows and in a browser as an applet > * Extending INPUT to handle JSF forms (for the very few programmers > that want to use this fine technology) > * Extending the syntax to do OO (see Python for easy OO) and let > Java Objects be used from 4GL > > In summary: 4GL is a simple, powerful, language, in a simple > environment. Simplicity is key. Let me simplify your job and tell you > what I'd like to see in the next EGL presentation: > > 1. Start with a 4GL program with a form and a report > 2. Run a shell and type "newfglpc program.4gl" - creating program.jar > - and then run "newfglrun program" and show a window with the > program running in GUI mode > 3. Then, run "newfglpc --web program.4gl" - creating a .war, this > time - and then drop the warfile in an appserver; then go to a URL > like "http://server/4gl/program"; and show it run on the browser > with the exact same look&feel that in GUI mode. > 4. And then, after establishing that the "New Informix 4GL" can > really substitute on the old one, only then, very carefully, the > demo could go on about JSF, app servers, complex IDE's (editing > and debugging 4GL directly), etc., so that nobody is scared. ;-) Comments: 1- As it was said in the .avi intro, when released it's supposed to include a forms converter (or the converter will be able to convert forms) 2- It would be nice... But as you mentioned, there are products which do this. 3- The GUI in a applet was done by 4Js. I haven't touched it for a long time, but deploying wasn't easy... You either sent a +300KB applet (not nice for network) or you tried to install the applet... but this was not very useful over the Internet... JSF makes more sense...? 4- Once again, EGL is not "the new Informix 4GL" and once again we haven't saw an EGL demo... only a film of a very basic (and pre-beta) conversion done by a "yet to come product". Now... What I mean by a "EGL is a much bigger picture than 4GL"... I personaly don't think IBM have done EGL for replacing _I4GL_. EGL intends to be a _4GL_ for modern environments. Note the underlines... "4GL" and "I4GL". The "target" for EGL is not _only_ the I4GL environments out there... It's target are the programmig teams that have to focus on business problems and solutions and want a "RAD" to do it. if you want Object Orientation, direct Java and JDBC, J2EE etc. and you are productive with, and know all this things, then you probably won't need EGL. But if you, like me, have to do a program very quickly, and you have no practice on OO environments, and you would love to be able to integrate your work with modern environments, then, either you're an old timer 4GL programmer or not, you may find EGL very useful. Also very important, we haven't seen an EGL demo... EGL is capable of (but not only): 1- create web services 2- call java 3- call C/C++ etc. programs/functions 4- create web applications 5- create non-interactive batch files 6- in 6.x it will include a 4GL to EGL converter @@NL@

Fernando Fernandez wrote: > Hi all! (are the 'O' guys smarter?) Yep.