Re: IDS 11 - Press Releases
Not a technical support thread but a marketing/licensing argument sparked by the IDS 11 press releases: whether IBM should offer a free or low-cost developer edition of Informix. Ian Gumby argued the ~$800 developer package is trivial for any real business; DA Morgan, Tool and Mark Townsend countered that students, hobbyists and developers in emerging economies (India, China) can't or won't pay, and that DB2 and rivals offer free editions. Carsten Haese noted free options already exist: the user-limited IIUG version and IBM's time-limited trial. The exchange grew heated and ended without agreement or any resolution.
Auto-generated by DrWatson from the posts below — may be imperfect; read the full thread.
On Jun 13, 1:35 pm, "Ian Michael Gumby" <im_gu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >From: DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> > >Neil Truby wrote: > > > > The fact is, Poet, '1,350 *is* a lot of money to spend on getting a > > > supported and un-bombed version of Informix. Yes, you get a lot of > >other > > > stuff as well but for an SMB, wanting to specialise on a very limited > >number > > > of products as SMBs must do to survive, the addiotnal products are of > > > limited value. '1,350 for the "Value Package" is a sh*tload of cash, > >full > > > stop. > > >And '1,349 more than any student is going to pay. > > The baffoon speaks again. > > Dude! > The program isn't aimed at students. Actually IBM has a division for > universities, although I don't know who or what they actually do. > > The program is geared towards actual developers who are designing and > building real kit to be resold. > > Any startup worth their weight will invest in the tools that they will need > to be successful. > > an investment of $800 USD is nothing. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 Interesting discussion! First off, IBM is pouring money into IDS development... not a dribble, not a trickle... pouring. Take that statement with a grain of salt given its IBM and one person's downpour is another's shower. I totally agree that IBM does not have a clue on how to approach developers. As people are clamoring for a 'free' version if IDS, one forgets that IDS simply runs too good on small configurations to just give it away. That would undercut IDS business. What people should be asking for is a developer's version with developer's tools that can't be distributed. I'm not licensing guru so I don't know if its possible. Ask Gary Proctor. He's focusing on this issue. There's got to be an answer!
>From: pokeyman <pokeyman76@gmail.com> >Ask Gary Proctor. He's focusing on this issue. There's got >to be an answer! > Spoken like an Informix shill. ;-P Ok, point well taken. The "developers version" has to be a full functioning version. There has to be a developers program. So you need to vette the members to see if they are really developers or not. It already exists with IBM's current program. $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the developer access to tech support. Want to go beyond that, then you'd create a paperwork nightmare of NDAs, and company information, etc ... $800 doesn't even buy you a last minute plane ticket to Cleveland. It doesn't even cover room 1801's bar tab. (Those who attended IDUG should know what I'm talking about.) _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
It's very arrogant of you to assume that $800 is acceptable as a price to pay for access to the software. Just because it's acceptable to YOU doesn't mean it's acceptable to others, or affordable. There are plenty of people out there that simply cannot afford that price, and they're not even in a business, they're people wanting to learn to use the product, and better their skills. So, what works for you is not necessarily what works for other people. Besides it's a steep price for something that literally is starting from scratch in the broader market, having lost what little momentum it had before IBM consumed it. Now that it's back out as a new release, it needs to seed its market all over again. Not just for big corporations, but for the real market that can give it a headstart, the developer community and small businesses. If people want support, then yes, pay for it, but don't beat up people for access to it, or the market will never take off. It'll be a dud, as usual. Mark my words, a month from now it'll be a yawn, and nobody will care. -t- Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: pokeyman <pokeyman76@gmail.com> >> Ask Gary Proctor. He's focusing on this issue. There's got >> to be an answer! >> > > > Spoken like an Informix shill. ;-P > > Ok, point well taken. > The "developers version" has to be a full functioning version. > There has to be a developers program. So you need to vette the members > to see if they are really developers or not. It already exists with > IBM's current program. > > $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the > developer access to tech support. > > Want to go beyond that, then you'd create a paperwork nightmare of NDAs, > and company information, etc ... > > $800 doesn't even buy you a last minute plane ticket to Cleveland. > > It doesn't even cover room 1801's bar tab. (Those who attended IDUG > should know what I'm talking about.) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 >
Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > The "developers version" has to be a full functioning version. Agreed. > There has to be a developers program. Why? Others don't have one so why is this required? > So you need to vette the members Again ... why? If 100,000 people download and try working with the product is that a bad thing? How? > $800.00 is nothing. Perhaps you are wealthy enough to endow a scholarship for my students interested in Informix. If so I am sure the university would gratefully accept your donation. Shall I have them contact you? -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 13:58 -0700, DA Morgan wrote: > > $800.00 is nothing. > > Perhaps you are wealthy enough to endow a scholarship for my students > interested in Informix. If so I am sure the university would gratefully > accept your donation. Shall I have them contact you? Where were you when we discussed the user-limited IIUG version and the time-limited IBM trial version that are both available for free? I would think that one or the other is probably sufficient for students. -- Carsten Haese http://informixdb.sourceforge.net
Who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate for developers? More arrogance! Get off your fucking high horse and if you don't mind paying money for something that's your business but don't assume what works for you works for others. God what fucking arrogance. Carsten Haese wrote: > On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 13:58 -0700, DA Morgan wrote: >>> $800.00 is nothing. >> Perhaps you are wealthy enough to endow a scholarship for my students >> interested in Informix. If so I am sure the university would gratefully >> accept your donation. Shall I have them contact you? > > Where were you when we discussed the user-limited IIUG version and the > time-limited IBM trial version that are both available for free? I would > think that one or the other is probably sufficient for students. >
Carsten Haese wrote: > On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 13:58 -0700, DA Morgan wrote: >>> $800.00 is nothing. >> Perhaps you are wealthy enough to endow a scholarship for my students >> interested in Informix. If so I am sure the university would gratefully >> accept your donation. Shall I have them contact you? > > Where were you when we discussed the user-limited IIUG version and the > time-limited IBM trial version that are both available for free? I would > think that one or the other is probably sufficient for students. You just answered your own question in your reply: Reread your paragraph. I wouldn't use Tool's verbiage but I also wouldn't disagree with the sentiment. When a valuable product is dying due to years of lousy marketing it is fascinating to find some defending that failed marketing effort. "Hey it isn't working ... but keep it up" is not a battle cry that has ever taken anyone to glory. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 14:23 -0700, Tool wrote: > Who the fuck are you to decide what is appropriate for developers? DA Morgan was making the point that $800 is too much to pay for students. I was making the point that either the IBM evaluation license or the IIUG license should be sufficient for students. I didn't say anything about developers. Apology accepted in advance. -- Carsten Haese http://informixdb.sourceforge.net
On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 16:54 -0700, DA Morgan wrote: > Carsten Haese wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-06-15 at 13:58 -0700, DA Morgan wrote: > >>> $800.00 is nothing. > >> Perhaps you are wealthy enough to endow a scholarship for my students > >> interested in Informix. If so I am sure the university would gratefully > >> accept your donation. Shall I have them contact you? > > > > Where were you when we discussed the user-limited IIUG version and the > > time-limited IBM trial version that are both available for free? I would > > think that one or the other is probably sufficient for students. > > You just answered your own question in your reply: Reread your paragraph. Apparently you didn't notice that it was a rhetorical question. > I wouldn't use Tool's verbiage but I also wouldn't disagree with the > sentiment. > > When a valuable product is dying due to years of lousy marketing it is > fascinating to find some defending that failed marketing effort. I'm not defending anything. I was merely stating the fact that there is a free version of Informix out there that your students could use. > "Hey it isn't working ... but keep it up" is not a battle cry that has > ever taken anyone to glory. You must be confusing me with somebody else. I never said anything like this. I actually agree that IBM could do more for IDS marketing, but I don't subscribe to the gloom and doom attitude that you and Tool are projecting. The same crowd predicted in 2001 that Informix will be dead by 2006. It's 2007 now, and Informix still isn't dead. -- Carsten Haese http://informixdb.sourceforge.net
> $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the > developer access to tech support. $800 is a lot in some economies, most noticeably the key growth economies. These economies are the single biggest reason why all the major vendors have free versions of their databases.
Timmy. If you can't pony up $800.00 then don't bitch about the lack of a "free" version of IDS. Or wait until there 's an IIUG version. $800 USD is ~400 BPS which is much less than OTC's annual bar tab. Now I'm a fair judge of a good deal. TANATAAFL! >From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >Reply-To: tool@thetool.com >To: informix-list@iiug.org >Subject: Re: IDS 11 - Press Releases >Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:32:46 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from perform.iiug.org ([216.177.38.211]) by >bay0-mc3-f12.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Fri, >15 Jun 2007 11:35:34 -0700 >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])by perform.iiug.org >(Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B039A443;Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:35:27 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from perform.iiug.org ([127.0.0.1])by localhost (perform.iiug.org >[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)with ESMTP id pFW0fARgr5ON; Fri, 15 >Jun 2007 14:35:22 -0400 (EDT) >Received: by perform.iiug.org (Postfix, from userid 60001)id 9966FA465; >Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:35:20 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from perform.iiug.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])by perform.iiug.org >(Postfix) with ESMTP id 32149A432;Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:35:05 -0400 (EDT) >X-Message-Info: >LsUYwwHHNt37RF0XoPznPdUf9TDdmCSWJ31K/ff9B1Bjv+BhzLrPICfipR9ANs8Q >X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at iiug.org >Path: >nnrp.xmission!xmission!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.net!prodigy.net!uns-out.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!pc03.usenetserver.com!fe62.usenetserver.com.POSTED!caff4bb4!not-for-mail >Organization: Tool >User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070604) >Newsgroups: comp.databases.informix >References: <mailman.208.1181931366.13675.informix-list@iiug.org> >Lines: 51 >X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com >X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers >X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint >properly. >NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:32:47 EDT >Xref: nnrp.xmission comp.databases.informix:197565 >X-BeenThere: informix-list@iiug.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.6 >Precedence: list >List-Id: "comp.databases.informix" <informix-list.iiug.org> >List-Unsubscribe: ><http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list>,<mailto:informix-list-request@iiug.org?subject=unsubscribe>; >List-Archive: <http://www.iiug.org/pipermail/informix-list>; >List-Post: <mailto:informix-list@iiug.org> >List-Help: <mailto:informix-list-request@iiug.org?subject=help> >List-Subscribe: ><http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list>,<mailto:informix-list-request@iiug.org?subject=subscribe>; >Errors-To: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org >Return-Path: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jun 2007 18:35:34.0703 (UTC) >FILETIME=[F609E3F0:01C7AF7B] > >It's very arrogant of you to assume that $800 is acceptable as a price to >pay for access to the software. Just because it's acceptable to YOU >doesn't mean it's acceptable to others, or affordable. There are plenty >of people out there that simply cannot afford that price, and they're >not even in a business, they're people wanting to learn to use the product, >and better their skills. So, what works for you is not necessarily what >works for other people. Besides it's a steep price for something that >literally is starting from scratch in the broader market, having lost >what little momentum it had before IBM consumed it. Now that it's back >out as a new release, it needs to seed its market all over again. Not >just for big corporations, but for the real market that can give it a >headstart, the developer community and small businesses. If people want >support, then yes, pay for it, but don't beat up people for access to it, >or the market will never take off. It'll be a dud, as usual. Mark my >words, >a month from now it'll be a yawn, and nobody will care. > >-t- > >Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > > > > > >> From: pokeyman <pokeyman76@gmail.com> > >> Ask Gary Proctor. He's focusing on this issue. There's got > >> to be an answer! > >> > > > > > > Spoken like an Informix shill. ;-P > > > > Ok, point well taken. > > The "developers version" has to be a full functioning version. > > There has to be a developers program. So you need to vette the members > > to see if they are really developers or not. It already exists with > > IBM's current program. > > > > $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the > > developer access to tech support. > > > > Want to go beyond that, then you'd create a paperwork nightmare of NDAs, > > and company information, etc ... > > > > $800 doesn't even buy you a last minute plane ticket to Cleveland. > > > > It doesn't even cover room 1801's bar tab. (Those who attended IDUG > > should know what I'm talking about.) > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. > > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 > > > >_______________________________________________ >Informix-list mailing list >Informix-list@iiug.org >http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
> >>$800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the >>developer access to tech support. > >$800 is a lot in some economies, most noticeably the key growth economies. >These economies are the single biggest reason why all the major vendors >have free versions of their databases. And how many developing worlds are writing the next great business app? Thats the point. $800 USD is less that 400 BPS, and less than 600 Euros, give or take. Going over to Asia Pac, Japan? $800 probably a weekend hotel suite in Tokyo. Do your homework and see who IBM wants to encourage... _________________________________________________________________ Picture this ' share your photos and you could win big! http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> >>> $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow >>> the developer access to tech support. >> >> $800 is a lot in some economies, most noticeably the key growth >> economies. These economies are the single biggest reason why all the >> major vendors have free versions of their databases. > > And how many developing worlds are writing the next great business app? All of them. > > Thats the point. > Exactly. > $800 USD is less that 400 BPS, and less than 600 Euros, give or take. > Europe is not a developing economy. The UK is not a developing economy. > Going over to Asia Pac, Japan? $800 probably a weekend hotel suite in > Tokyo. > Japan is not a developing economy > Do your homework and see who IBM wants to encourage... > $800 US is 32,472 Indian Rupees. If you are saying that IBM does not want to encourage new developers in India or China you are mistaken. They just don't seem to want to encourage them to use Informix. Hence DB2 has a free version, Informix doesn't.
Gumpy I'm going to post my last on this one for a spell, but close with these thoughts. The competition has all the examples one would need to show the difference between what a successful product is, and one that has less than or about %3 of the market. The lights are on, but this thing is just not going anywhere. Sure, Informix hasn't died completely but there is a whole generation of developers out there that don't know anything about it, and are not about to risk wasting time on something unless they are working somewhere that already has it. You can bet they are spending their spare time working with the free stuff from the competition even if they are in a rare company using Informix. They have to go with the market, and until Informix is a market maker again, it's not going anywhere. The fresh crop of young, new developers are already on track for everything and anything but Informix. Interestingly enough, there appears to be a lot of Oracle work out there going unfilled. I installed Oracle 4 or 5 years ago, and it's a bullet on my resume. I get one or two emails a day from recruiters looking for Oracle people. I have some bullets of Informix on my resume, and get absolutely nothing from recruiters about Informix. I am quick to point out that I can't do Oracle, but recruiters are willing to ask if I'll take training and willing to find out if the client will take me even if I don't have strong Oracle skills. I don't see that happening with Informix. What I can afford and what I'm willing to pay are two completely separate issues, and I don't think you understand that, so I'm not going to try to discuss it anymore. Oracle and Microsoft get it, so it's not important to belabor the point. Have a great week-end, and continue to let the arrogance cloud your thinking. Common sense and statistics will prevail. Mark my words in another month Informix will be forgotten once again. I am so sure of it I haven't even thought about what I'd do if there was anything dramatic in the Informix marketing department to boost it. It just ain't gonna happen. Statistics are on my side. -t- Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > Timmy. > > If you can't pony up $800.00 then don't bitch about the lack of a "free" > version of IDS. > > Or wait until there 's an IIUG version. > > $800 USD is ~400 BPS which is much less than OTC's annual bar tab. > > > Now I'm a fair judge of a good deal. > TANATAAFL! > > > >> Tool postulated... >> >> It's very arrogant of you to assume that $800 is acceptable as a price to >> pay for access to the software. Just because it's acceptable to YOU >> doesn't mean it's acceptable to others, or affordable. There are plenty >> of people out there that simply cannot afford that price, and they're >> not even in a business, they're people wanting to learn to use the >> product, >> and better their skills. So, what works for you is not necessarily what >> works for other people. Besides it's a steep price for something that >> literally is starting from scratch in the broader market, having lost >> what little momentum it had before IBM consumed it. Now that it's back >> out as a new release, it needs to seed its market all over again. Not >> just for big corporations, but for the real market that can give it a >> headstart, the developer community and small businesses. If people want >> support, then yes, pay for it, but don't beat up people for access to it, >> or the market will never take off. It'll be a dud, as usual. Mark my >> words, >> a month from now it'll be a yawn, and nobody will care. >> >> -t- >> >> Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> From: pokeyman <pokeyman76@gmail.com> >> >> Ask Gary Proctor. He's focusing on this issue. There's got >> >> to be an answer! >> >> >> > >> > >> > Spoken like an Informix shill. ;-P >> > >> > Ok, point well taken. >> > The "developers version" has to be a full functioning version. >> > There has to be a developers program. So you need to vette the members >> > to see if they are really developers or not. It already exists with >> > IBM's current program. >> > >> > $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow the >> > developer access to tech support. >> > >> > Want to go beyond that, then you'd create a paperwork nightmare of >> NDAs, >> > and company information, etc ... >> > >> > $800 doesn't even buy you a last minute plane ticket to Cleveland. >> > >> > It doesn't even cover room 1801's bar tab. (Those who attended IDUG >> > should know what I'm talking about.) >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. >> > http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2 >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Informix-list mailing list >> Informix-list@iiug.org >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. > http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park&cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01 > >
> "Hey it isn't working ... but keep it up" is not a battle cry that has > ever taken anyone to glory. So far. But Geroge W. Bush may yet prove us all wrong in I-raq.
Mark Townsend wrote: > Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >>> >>>> $800.00 is nothing. Its the cost of doing business as well as allow >>>> the developer access to tech support. >>> >>> $800 is a lot in some economies, most noticeably the key growth >>> economies. These economies are the single biggest reason why all the >>> major vendors have free versions of their databases. >> >> And how many developing worlds are writing the next great business app? > > All of them. > >> >> Thats the point. >> > > Exactly. > >> $800 USD is less that 400 BPS, and less than 600 Euros, give or take. >> > > Europe is not a developing economy. The UK is not a developing economy. > >> Going over to Asia Pac, Japan? $800 probably a weekend hotel suite in >> Tokyo. >> > > Japan is not a developing economy > >> Do your homework and see who IBM wants to encourage... >> > > $800 US is 32,472 Indian Rupees. > > If you are saying that IBM does not want to encourage new developers in > India or China you are mistaken. They just don't seem to want to > encourage them to use Informix. Hence DB2 has a free version, Informix > doesn't. Which the marketplace gets. Which Informix community is trying to ignore. And which IBM has made more than abundantly clear to anyone paying attention. Informix has become the new "FoxPro." -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)