Re: The funny thing about numbers is that they're just numbers...

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > While Eric brings up an excellent point: > http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2634118720080826?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0 > > Its just numbers and its only a guess as to how the market breaks down. > But assuming that it is accurate... > > The comments made by the analyst do show that IBM SWG IM is doing a > pretty poor job of getting the word out. > It seems that Ambush doesn't like to spend money on marketing. > > It also seems that Ambush doesn't understand how to motivate sales > critters either. > Most of my local sales critters have moved on to different companies, > even to Oracle. So I may be out of touch, but I haven't heard anything > about a sales program to take out Sybase from financial accounts. And > no, it won't happen any time soon, because IBM didn't seed the market. > > Unlike Timmy who wants to seed the "developers", the real way to seed > the market is to give that market segment a story or an example of how > and why IDS is better than their current solution. Its called seeding > the niche. By doing this, you now have a story that the sales reps can > sell. Selling the story, sells the product. Only no such program exists. > (And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God > only knows...) > I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff. But this is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff. Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation of developers completely unaware of it. People here are aware of IDS, but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are coming up. Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door. If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be" product, not a "it's back and better than ever" message. I have yet to hear about anybody using IDS besides Cisco and Walmart, and maybe a couple of stories here from DBAs actually using IDS. I got an email the other day for a MySQL position in Chicago, most likely Sears, right. But I don't see any trade magazine buzz about Informix, or anything from the major news outlets about Informix. Great that Eric posted some reality news about database sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track. So we agree that sales people need IDS training, now what. They talk to a client and then what? The client has to find people to support it. Most likely they won't find anybody available, or accessible--and by the way-- this is the same buzz I hear about DB2. Both DB2 and IDS are not well known or the buzz is typically "We can't find people to work on that". Your points are all good, and address the front-end, the top-down, but they don't address the service after the sale. If the customer is so weirdly compelled to actually use and install IDS, who they gonna call to actually work on it? Old guys like me? Maybe if I'm in a risky mood, and don't mind soiling my resume with yet more useless experience with IDS. No, a smart manager is not going to buy something they can't find people to support it. Plain and simple. So going top-down is nice, it's a lot of cock-waiving like the clown sez, but it doesn't seal the deal. You have to have a base of people out there that can support the product. Without an already installed base of people, and not just us old-timers, and loyalists from the goddam IIUG, the product is not going to go anywhere--except Cisco and Walmart, who obviously are keeping the product alive. I'm sure IBM will go through some more of their cyclical behavior, firing people, shuffling others, trying to boost sales. They will do the same things over and over, expecting different results. Until a real developer program seeds the market and spreads it out, no market momentum will ever happen.

> From: indeep@indeep.com > > Unlike Timmy who wants to seed the "developers", the real way to seed > > the market is to give that market segment a story or an example of how > > and why IDS is better than their current solution. Its called seeding > > the niche. By doing this, you now have a story that the sales reps can > > sell. Selling the story, sells the product. Only no such program exists. > > (And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God > > only knows...) > > > > I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff. But this > is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff. > Assumption? If the company that manufactures the product can't sell the product then there's a major problem. Sorry that's a flaw in your logic. > Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation > of developers completely unaware of it. People here are aware of IDS, > but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids > what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid > sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are > coming up. Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door. > Timmy, You're again not focusing on the issue. If I walk down "silicon alley/valley/wherever" and ask about Informix, yeah no one is going to know jack. (Who's fault is that? ;-) But you shouldn't look at IDS vs mySQL or Postrgress or Derby. mySQL now owned by Sun was in the right place at the right time. It was free to develop with but you had to pay a small license fee to use in production. (IBM doesn't do this...) And of course mySQL never really hunted down people who put mySQL in to production without first licensing it. (Something IBM will do with their "TRUE UP" program.) Postgress is free. So to is Derby. IDS isn't. So if I were looking at startups, IDS is not a database that would work well in their business model, unless of course, IDS has some feature that they require. So you can't focus on "buzz" because it won't generate sales or net new customers. (The cost of implementing IDS as part of your solution will kill your price point, especially if you're a startup and trying to compete in the SMB space.) > If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really > never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be" product, > not a "it's back and better than ever" message. I have yet to hear about > anybody using IDS besides Cisco and Walmart, and maybe a couple of stories > here from DBAs actually using IDS. I got an email the other day for a > MySQL position in Chicago, most likely Sears, right. But I don't see any > trade magazine buzz about Informix, or anything from the major news outlets > about Informix. Great that Eric posted some reality news about database > sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track. > I believe it is Sears, but its a division of Sears. This division is downtown and its well away from Hoffman Estates. (Which makes things interesting...) If anyone bothered to read beyond the funny pages, you'd see that Sear's business took a major hit. Well in to the double digits sales loss. You can blame it on the economy, but guess what. Sears will look to cut costs. So Gumby, how can Sears cut costs, you say? Simple: They can redesign their next generation of store systems to detatch the application from the database and then consider moving to a database that offers all the performance they need at a lower cost point. Does mySQL fit that description? Sure. Does Postgress? You bet. And I'm sure there's a handfull of others. (Note: You don't have to buy Postgress, but if you require support, like a publically traded company, the support license costs are much less than those of IBM or Oracle.) Oh and now that Sun owns mySQL, you too can buy support from them. So, there you have an example of a retailer, one who has a lot of IDS licenses moving to a more cost effective alternative. Now if Michelle P is in charge of store systems, this may actually happen faster than you think. Now you'll see a bit of shrinkage in the license numbers. That is, if IBM actually published license numbers. ;-) And this can and will happen. Of course, there's only one IDS certified IT Specialist who used to be a consultant at Sears. But AFAIK, he also has DB2 customers to support too. And he doesn't support companies like PeaPod since they're not considered a local client. But hey! What do I know? Its not like I was cross matrixed to S&D. Oh wait. I was. :-( -G _________________________________________________________________ Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with Windows®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/

I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix help if there is none available. --- On Fri, 8/29/08, InDeep <indeep@indeep.com> wrote: From: InDeep <indeep@indeep.com> Subject: Re: The funny thing about numbers is that they're just numbers... To: informix-list@iiug.org Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 11:31 AM Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > While Eric brings up an excellent point: > http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2634118720080826?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0 > > Its just numbers and its only a guess as to how the market breaks down. > But assuming that it is accurate... > > The comments made by the analyst do show that IBM SWG IM is doing a > pretty poor job of getting the word out. > It seems that Ambush doesn't like to spend money on marketing. > > It also seems that Ambush doesn't understand how to motivate sales > critters either. > Most of my local sales critters have moved on to different companies, > even to Oracle. So I may be out of touch, but I haven't heard anything > about a sales program to take out Sybase from financial accounts. And > no, it won't happen any time soon, because IBM didn't seed the market. > > Unlike Timmy who wants to seed the "developers", the real way to seed > the market is to give that market segment a story or an example of how > and why IDS is better than their current solution. Its called seeding > the niche. By doing this, you now have a story that the sales reps can > sell. Selling the story, sells the product. Only no such program exists. > (And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God > only knows...) > I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff. But this is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff. Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation of developers completely unaware of it. People here are aware of IDS, but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are coming up. Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door. If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be" product, not a "it's back and better than ever" message. I have yet to hear about anybody using IDS besides Cisco and Walmart, and maybe a couple of stories here from DBAs actually using IDS. I got an email the other day for a MySQL position in Chicago, most likely Sears, right. But I don't see any trade magazine buzz about Informix, or anything from the major news outlets about Informix. Great that Eric posted some reality news about database sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track. So we agree that sales people need IDS training, now what. They talk to a client and then what? The client has to find people to support it. Most likely they won't find anybody available, or accessible--and by the way-- this is the same buzz I hear about DB2. Both DB2 and IDS are not well known or the buzz is typically "We can't find people to work on that". Your points are all good, and address the front-end, the top-down, but they don't address the service after the sale. If the customer is so weirdly compelled to actually use and install IDS, who they gonna call to actually work on it? Old guys like me? Maybe if I'm in a risky mood, and don't mind soiling my resume with yet more useless experience with IDS. No, a smart manager is not going to buy something they can't find people to support it. Plain and simple. So going top-down is nice, it's a lot of cock-waiving like the clown sez, but it doesn't seal the deal. You have to have a base of people out there that can support the product. Without an already installed base of people, and not just us old-timers, and loyalists from the goddam IIUG, the product is not going to go anywhere--except Cisco and Walmart, who obviously are keeping the product alive. I'm sure IBM will go through some more of their cyclical behavior, firing people, shuffling others, trying to boost sales. They will do the same things over and over, expecting different results. Until a real developer program seeds the market and spreads it out, no market momentum will ever happen. _______________________________________________ Informix-list mailing list Informix-list@iiug.org http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

They hired old dogs and offshores to do the work. They can get people new to the game or try and find a few old timers, but my guess is that they probably found an offshore or two cuz they're CHEAP and fits in with corporate american management to get cheap offshores. I'm guessing in the future they will expand their H1Bs. Right now they get 3 H1Bs directly, and with Infosys having a whopping +4000 here in the US, they can get even more, not to mention the L1s that can work here without a quota. Daniel Richardson wrote: > I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix help > if there is none available. > >

InDeep wrote: > They hired old dogs and offshores to do the work. They can get people > new to the game or try and find a few old timers, but my guess is that > they probably found an offshore or two cuz they're CHEAP and fits in with > corporate american management to get cheap offshores. I'm guessing in the > future they will expand their H1Bs. Right now they get 3 H1Bs directly, > and with Infosys having a whopping +4000 here in the US, they can get even > more, not to mention the L1s that can work here without a quota. > Forgot to mention Cisco's H1B quota count ( not through another offshore agency ) : CISCO LINKSYS LLC - 3 CISCO SYSTEMS INC - 324 > > Daniel Richardson wrote: >> I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix >> help if there is none available. >> >> >