Re: Informix beats Oracle

Just because I am in a very bad mood (Pick Pockets in Milan and Baggage Handlers at Heathrow), I thought I would add my own gasoline to this one and see how long it will run. Some recent interesting articles of relevance http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=507466 http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=C490073B-AA7E-485D-94DB-0711C628D3DA

> Just because I am in a very bad mood (Pick Pockets in Milan and > Baggage Handlers at Heathrow), I thought I would add my own gasoline > to this one and see how long it will run. Some recent interesting > articles of relevance > > http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=507466 > > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=C490073B-AA7E-485D-94DB-0711C628D3DA > > There was a follow up to your second article posted this morning. http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=32132E58-3C00-4A2B-B35D-4BDBA5EACB53 Andrew

markbtownsend@sbcglobal.net said: > Baggage Handlers at Heathrow) I'm pleased that Britain could make some small contribution to the brightness of your day. :o) -- Bye now, Obnoxio "I'm astonished anyone pays real money for this crap." -- Cosmo -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is believed to be clean.

Well of course there would be. Informix and DB2 are alive and well and growing faster than the database market.

Andrew Ford wrote: >> Just because I am in a very bad mood (Pick Pockets in Milan and >> Baggage Handlers at Heathrow), I thought I would add my own gasoline >> to this one and see how long it will run. Some recent interesting >> articles of relevance >> >> http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=507466 >> >> http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=C490073B-AA7E-485D-94DB-0711C628D3DA >> >> The best part of ^^ that cbonline article: "I can't imagine why anyone would leave Informix for DB2," Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said on the announcement that IBM was buying the firm. Priceless!! :-) I think I'll have that one printed and put in a picture frame... > > There was a follow up to your second article posted this morning. > > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=32132E58-3C00-4A2B-B35D-4BDBA5EACB53 > > > Andrew > > -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- http://www.informix.com --

> > The best part of ^^ that cbonline article: > > "I can't imagine why anyone would leave Informix for DB2," Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said on the announcement that IBM > was buying the firm. > > Priceless!! > > :-) > > I think I'll have that one printed and put in a picture frame... > Send it me and I will get him to sign it for you. To Tool, Love Larry Hmm - how do you sign off your letters Love Tool ?

markbtownsend@sbcglobal.net wrote: >> The best part of ^^ that cbonline article: >> >> "I can't imagine why anyone would leave Informix for DB2," Oracle CEO Larry Ellison said on the announcement that IBM >> was buying the firm. >> >> Priceless!! >> >> :-) >> >> I think I'll have that one printed and put in a picture frame... >> > Send it me and I will get him to sign it for you. To Tool, Love Larry > > Hmm - how do you sign off your letters > > Love Tool ? > It sucks to be predicable... :-) -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- http://www.informix.com --

markbtownsend@sbcglobal.net wrote: > Just because I am in a very bad mood (Pick Pockets in Milan and > Baggage Handlers at Heathrow) Brighten up, as it could have been worse. In Milan baggage handlers rob from passengers luggage.... -- Ciao, Marco ______________________________________________________________________________ Marco Greco /UK /IBM Standard disclaimers apply! Structured Query Scripting Language http://www.4glworks.com/sqsl.htm 4glworks http://www.4glworks.com Informix on Linux http://www.4glworks.com/ifmxlinux.htm

markbtownsend@sbcglobal.net wrote: > Well of course there would be. Informix and DB2 are alive and well and > growing faster than the database market. > I'd say "Kill the spokesperson"... but then again, without knowing who he is may pose serious difficulties to this task. Nevertheless, the good news is that DB2 is selling like a rocket... Given the fact that IDS is nearly dead, and combining this with the fact that IBM revenue has gained 8.8% YoY, it clearly shows how DB2 is growing. But... Noticing that this study relates to revenue, not licenses, and after DA Morgan has carefully shown us how expensive Oracle is, what else could we expect? The customers will obviously clap there hands to show appreciation on the fact that it's their money that drove Oracle to the top. And will obviously do so this year since they will have to upgrade their 9.* systems after the arrival of 11g "G... as in Geee... and Grin" The more wise of the readers may notice that this post relies heavily on irony :) -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

Fernando Nunes wrote: > Nevertheless, the good news is that DB2 is selling like a rocket... > Given the fact that IDS is nearly dead, and combining this with the fact > that IBM revenue has gained 8.8% YoY, it clearly shows how DB2 is growing. DB2 selling like a rocket is good news for Informix developers and DBAs how? They aren't IBM stockholders. It isn't a product they know and use. The Gartner numbers, BTW, clearly show IBM's growth. They show it at a fraction of the growth of Microsoft and Oracle. IBM 8.8%, Oracle 14.9%, and Microsoft 28.0%. > But... Noticing that this study relates to revenue, not licenses, and > after DA Morgan has carefully shown us how expensive Oracle is, what > else could we expect? You can't get the same price for a Chevy you can get for a Bentley. There's a reason why people are willing to pay more. And they aren't all brain dead except in your imagination. Organizations pay more for that which they perceive to have value. Price Informix at $40K/CPU and lets see how many licenses are sold? -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

DA Morgan wrote: > Fernando Nunes wrote: > >> Nevertheless, the good news is that DB2 is selling like a rocket... >> Given the fact that IDS is nearly dead, and combining this with the >> fact that IBM revenue has gained 8.8% YoY, it clearly shows how DB2 is >> growing. > > DB2 selling like a rocket is good news for Informix developers and DBAs > how? They aren't IBM stockholders. It isn't a product they know and use. > The Gartner numbers, BTW, clearly show IBM's growth. They show it at a > fraction of the growth of Microsoft and Oracle. IBM 8.8%, Oracle 14.9%, > and Microsoft 28.0%. > >> But... Noticing that this study relates to revenue, not licenses, and >> after DA Morgan has carefully shown us how expensive Oracle is, what >> else could we expect? > > You can't get the same price for a Chevy you can get for a Bentley. > There's a reason why people are willing to pay more. And they aren't all > brain dead except in your imagination. > > Organizations pay more for that which they perceive to have value. Price > Informix at $40K/CPU and lets see how many licenses are sold? Part of the fuel that makes Oracle sell so well is an abundance of management folks that don't have a technical background enough to understand the issues, so they buy Oracle not because of technical reasons, but simply because they don't know any better--it's safe. Same for buying into SQL-Server, or any other technology that has good marketing. Informix needs to get marketed, but that can't happen if IBM won't let it. Imagine what Larry Ellison would really say if IBM started to really push IDS. Now THAT would be interesting. -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- http://www.informix.com --

DA Morgan wrote: > Fernando Nunes wrote: > >> Nevertheless, the good news is that DB2 is selling like a rocket... >> Given the fact that IDS is nearly dead, and combining this with the >> fact that IBM revenue has gained 8.8% YoY, it clearly shows how DB2 is >> growing. > > DB2 selling like a rocket is good news for Informix developers and DBAs > how? They aren't IBM stockholders. It isn't a product they know and use. > The Gartner numbers, BTW, clearly show IBM's growth. They show it at a > fraction of the growth of Microsoft and Oracle. IBM 8.8%, Oracle 14.9%, > and Microsoft 28.0%. > >> But... Noticing that this study relates to revenue, not licenses, and >> after DA Morgan has carefully shown us how expensive Oracle is, what >> else could we expect? > > You can't get the same price for a Chevy you can get for a Bentley. > There's a reason why people are willing to pay more. And they aren't all > brain dead except in your imagination. > > Organizations pay more for that which they perceive to have value. Price > Informix at $40K/CPU and lets see how many licenses are sold? You failed to read/comment the most important part of the post... Assuming you're an intelligent guy, I can only imagine that was an mistake... If I would take you seriously as you did, I'd ask you if you ever saw a car market share study based on revenue and without segmentation... But then we would start talking about cars... probably big, costly and with big engines and consumptions that people use for the same things that other people use less expensive and eventually more useful veihcles. Nevertheless, it's refreshing to see you say "oh... it just sells because it's cheap" after the post where you said it was priced equally. When we want to be right, we keep jumping from argument to argument. It has some advantages... like keeping Mike's mind away off his real problems (luggage handlers and pick pocketers)... Hopefully (for them) you probably have a more consistent attitude when dealing with your students... By "consistent" I mean choosing the right arguments at the first time, instead of consistently insisting in proving your point: Informix sucks Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

Tool wrote: > Part of the fuel that makes Oracle sell so well is an abundance of > management folks that don't have a technical background enough to understand the > issues, so they buy Oracle not because of technical reasons, but simply because > they don't know any better--it's safe. Same for buying into SQL-Server, or > any other technology that has good marketing. That may be part of it but if it is it is a small part. You guys are talking geek talk not management talk. All one ever hears in this group is speed and CPU utilization. Join an Oracle conversation and you hear questions about Fine Grained Auditing, Backup Encryption, Compliance, AES 256, etc. People in management when confronted with issues of speed and CPU know they can throw money at the problem and make it go away. Need more CPUs: Buy more CPUs. If you want to get management mindshare you need to talk their talk. And anyone paying attention to Oracle's salesforce isn't hearing them brag about benchmarks and ticks on the clock. They are talking about that which is required to comply with the ever-tightening laws in the EU and other countries. > Informix needs to get marketed, but that can't happen if IBM won't let it. Won't let it or chooses not to? Developers putting in new features are a lot cheaper than a serious marketing and sales campaign. > Imagine what Larry Ellison would really say if IBM started > to really push IDS. Now THAT would be interesting. With that thought in mind ... I imagine he's sleeping well tonight. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Fernando Nunes wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> Fernando Nunes wrote: >> >>> Nevertheless, the good news is that DB2 is selling like a rocket... >>> Given the fact that IDS is nearly dead, and combining this with the >>> fact that IBM revenue has gained 8.8% YoY, it clearly shows how DB2 >>> is growing. >> >> DB2 selling like a rocket is good news for Informix developers and >> DBAs how? They aren't IBM stockholders. It isn't a product they know >> and use. >> The Gartner numbers, BTW, clearly show IBM's growth. They show it at a >> fraction of the growth of Microsoft and Oracle. IBM 8.8%, Oracle 14.9%, >> and Microsoft 28.0%. >> >>> But... Noticing that this study relates to revenue, not licenses, and >>> after DA Morgan has carefully shown us how expensive Oracle is, what >>> else could we expect? >> >> You can't get the same price for a Chevy you can get for a Bentley. >> There's a reason why people are willing to pay more. And they aren't all >> brain dead except in your imagination. >> >> Organizations pay more for that which they perceive to have value. Price >> Informix at $40K/CPU and lets see how many licenses are sold? > > You failed to read/comment the most important part of the post... > Assuming you're an intelligent guy, I can only imagine that was an > mistake... > > If I would take you seriously as you did, I'd ask you if you ever saw a > car market share study based on revenue and without segmentation... > > But then we would start talking about cars... probably big, costly and > with big engines and consumptions that people use for the same things > that other people use less expensive and eventually more useful veihcles. > > Nevertheless, it's refreshing to see you say "oh... it just sells > because it's cheap" after the post where you said it was priced equally. > When we want to be right, we keep jumping from argument to argument. It > has some advantages... like keeping Mike's mind away off his real > problems (luggage handlers and pick pocketers)... > Hopefully (for them) you probably have a more consistent attitude when > dealing with your students... By "consistent" I mean choosing the right > arguments at the first time, instead of consistently insisting in > proving your point: Informix sucks > > Regards. I've never made any attempt to hide my disdain for benchmarks and those like Gartner whose opinions are for sale. But one can rank the marketplace by a number of metrics. Licenses sold License dollars Number of line-of-business applications supporting the product. The only one I think important, because I care about DBAs and developers not stockholders is the number of good paying jobs in the marketplace. That's why when I comment I always post "jobs available" numbers. But the reality remains ... you buy what you can afford ... based on the perception of value. Some CTOs may not be able to evaluate the difference between products but the marketplace's decision making clearly demonstrates that there are only three products taken seriously. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

DA Morgan wrote: > Tool wrote: > > Join an Oracle conversation and you hear questions about Fine Grained > Auditing, Backup Encryption, Compliance, AES 256, etc. > Nice idea... FGA: ---- http://www.oracle.com/technology/oramag/webcolumns/2003/techarticles/nanda_fga.html Quote: "...tracking statements, FGA provides a way to simulate a trigger for SELECT statements by executing a code whenever a user selects a particular set of data." IDS solution: CREATE TRIGGER t_name SELECT ON ( <columns> ) OF <table>... Can be improved with trigger introspection... Backup Encryption: ------------------ Ontape can backup to STDIO... you can compress/encrypt etc... Storage managers also provide encryption IIRC... in an enterprise wide scale, not only for database. Compliance: ----------- Lots to say here... We can put a running instance in a mode where define people can manage it but can't access it's data... This can be done without stopping the instance. The same can be said in order to activate auditing with role separation between who defines what will be audited and who controls the audit logs. We have LBAC for compliance... It can really depend on what we call compliance... many mention "SOX compliance", but SOX doesn't include any specific technical details... ITIL (or it's ISO replacement) is more specific, but even so, much of it are abstract rules... Many times, in management language, "Compliance" means whatever their favorite consulting firm says, independently of it being virtually impossible to use in productions systems... Other times means that it's written in a marketing flier... AES 256: -------- I'd have to look for this. I'm a complete newbie in this. We can have encryption in several areas of IDS, but I never worked with them. > People in management when confronted with issues of speed and CPU know > they can throw money at the problem and make it go away. Need more CPUs: > Buy more CPUs. For the topics you mentioned they can also choose: Throw money at Oracle buying Vault etc, or use the above, free of charge :) -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

DA Morgan wrote: > Tool wrote: > >> Part of the fuel that makes Oracle sell so well is an abundance of >> management folks that don't have a technical background enough to >> understand the issues, so they buy Oracle not because of technical >> reasons, but simply because they don't know any better--it's safe. >> Same for buying into SQL-Server, or any other technology that has good >> marketing. > > That may be part of it but if it is it is a small part. You guys are > talking geek talk not management talk. All one ever hears in this group > is speed and CPU utilization. > Some do. Not all of us are on technical-only topics. > Join an Oracle conversation and you hear questions about Fine Grained > Auditing, Backup Encryption, Compliance, AES 256, etc. > These conversations take place regardless of the database in use, and as you are most likely aware, especially in larger organizations, all kinds of products are in use, Oracle, SQL-Server, MySQL, DB2, even Informix I hear is still in use in a couple of shops out there. > People in management when confronted with issues of speed and CPU know > they can throw money at the problem and make it go away. Need more CPUs: > Buy more CPUs. > True, but this is not all management, and not all situations. There _are_ actually people using cost-effective solutions without any religious fervor towards what they use, purely business minded people finding the cheapest, most cost-effective solution they can find. Which is why Informix has a great opportunity to compete. But you have to have people in at IBM at the top that really understand the market, and I don't think IBM has those kinds of people running the show, they just haven't surfaced. When Informix gets a pair of balls in the marketing department then we'll see things change. Haven't seen men at Informix since Phil left. Just khaki-pants-shit-for-brains. > If you want to get management mindshare you need to talk their talk. And > anyone paying attention to Oracle's salesforce isn't hearing them brag > about benchmarks and ticks on the clock. They are talking about that > which is required to comply with the ever-tightening laws in the EU and > other countries. > Oracle is good at what they do, my opinion of course doesn't really matter one way or the other as to Oracles' success. As long as there is the 80/20 rule in effect, Oracle's future remains bright. >> Informix needs to get marketed, but that can't happen if IBM won't let >> it. > > Won't let it or chooses not to? Developers putting in new features are > a lot cheaper than a serious marketing and sales campaign. > I wouldn't index one to the other, Oracle is proof of that. >> Imagine what Larry Ellison would really say if IBM started >> to really push IDS. Now THAT would be interesting. > > With that thought in mind ... I imagine he's sleeping well tonight. He's depending on IBM to keep the status quo, and their arrogance to keep the company mediocre. Hell, Oracle runs on IBM hardware, Oracle wins either way it doesn't really matter... -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- http://www.informix.com --

Tool wrote: > He's depending on IBM to keep the status quo, and their arrogance > to keep the company mediocre. Hell, Oracle runs on IBM hardware, > Oracle wins either way it doesn't really matter... But is the issue whether IBM or Oracle wins ... and billionaires can afford a new boat? Or is it about people who have to work every day to pay the mortgage on the house, buy food, and put their kids through college? To me it is the later. But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the name of the feature for further research. Thanks. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:46:31 -0700, DA Morgan wrote > But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? Yes. > In other > words ... who requested which rows of data? Yes. > If so I'd appreciate the > name of the feature for further research. Thanks. It's called Auditing. http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/idshelp/v10/topic/com.ibm.tfg.doc/tfg26.htm -- Carsten Haese http://informixdb.sourceforge.net

DA Morgan wrote: > But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other > words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the > name of the feature for further research. Thanks. It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. Cheers Serge -- Serge Rielau DB2 Solutions Development IBM Toronto Lab

DA Morgan wrote: > Tool wrote: > >> He's depending on IBM to keep the status quo, and their arrogance >> to keep the company mediocre. Hell, Oracle runs on IBM hardware, >> Oracle wins either way it doesn't really matter... > > But is the issue whether IBM or Oracle wins ... and billionaires can > afford a new boat? Or is it about people who have to work every day > to pay the mortgage on the house, buy food, and put their kids through > college? To me it is the later. > And then you woke up.

Serge Rielau wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. > > Cheers > Serge Or even better - the DBA sets up onaudit.

>From: Fernando Nunes <spam@domus.online.pt> >Backup Encryption: >------------------ > >Ontape can backup to STDIO... you can compress/encrypt etc... >Storage managers also provide encryption IIRC... in an enterprise wide >scale, >not only for database. > >Compliance: >----------- > >Lots to say here... We can put a running instance in a mode where define >people >can manage it but can't access it's data... This can be done without >stopping >the instance. The same can be said in order to activate auditing with role >separation between who defines what will be audited and who controls the >audit >logs. We have LBAC for compliance... >It can really depend on what we call compliance... many mention "SOX >compliance", but SOX doesn't include any specific technical details... >ITIL (or it's ISO replacement) is more specific, but even so, much of it >are >abstract rules... Many times, in management language, "Compliance" means >whatever their favorite consulting firm says, independently of it being >virtually impossible to use in productions systems... Other times means >that >it's written in a marketing flier... > >AES 256: >-------- >I'd have to look for this. I'm a complete newbie in this. We can have >encryption in several areas of IDS, but I never worked with them. > Sigh The point was that when Daniel threw out this list of "features" he proved himself to be a troll. IDS 10 has Tripple DES and AES encryption within the engine. I've used this as a way to create a virtual user and his/her password. A neat hack to store passwords... use the password for the key and the value being encrypted. ;-) As to LBACS that's a new feature to improve security. _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 13:40 +0000, Madison Pruet wrote: > Serge Rielau wrote: > > DA Morgan wrote: > >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other > >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the > >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. > > > > Cheers > > Serge > > Or even better - the DBA sets up onaudit. Better still: The DBSSO sets up onaudit ;-) -- Carsten Haese http://informixdb.sourceforge.net

>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >name of the feature for further research. Thanks. Now Daniel, you seem to be quick to ask for features that have long been supported by IDS, why not ask about an oracle centric extension. Here's one... In an SQL Oracle supports a CONNECT BY clause which allows for a hierarchial query. I guess i'm old fashion in that I just use a prepared statement and a recursive routine. I don't think that IDS supports it, but I could be wrong. So why don't you attempt to tout this features value as to why Oracle is supperior to IDS? After all, you can't deny that IDS is a lean mean fighting machine. ;-) L8tr _________________________________________________________________ Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/

On Jun 27, 8:04 pm, Tool <t...@thetool.com> wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: > > Tool wrote: > > >> Part of the fuel that makes Oracle sell so well is an abundance of > >> management folks that don't have a technical background enough to > >> understand the issues, so they buy Oracle not because of technical > >> reasons, but simply because they don't know any better--it's safe. > >> Same for buying into SQL-Server, or any other technology that has good > >> marketing. > > > That may be part of it but if it is it is a small part. You guys are > > talking geek talk not management talk. All one ever hears in this group > > is speed and CPU utilization. > > Some do. Not all of us are on technical-only topics. > > > Join an Oracle conversation and you hear questions about Fine Grained > > Auditing, Backup Encryption, Compliance, AES 256, etc. > > These conversations take place regardless of the database in use, and > as you are most likely aware, especially in larger organizations, all > kinds of products are in use, Oracle, SQL-Server, MySQL, DB2, even > Informix I hear is still in use in a couple of shops out there. > > > People in management when confronted with issues of speed and CPU know > > they can throw money at the problem and make it go away. Need more CPUs: > > Buy more CPUs. > > True, but this is not all management, and not all situations. There _are_ > actually people using cost-effective solutions without any religious fervor > towards what they use, purely business minded people finding the cheapest, > most cost-effective solution they can find. Which is why Informix has a great > opportunity to compete. But you have to have people in at IBM at the top that really > understand the market, and I don't think IBM has those kinds of people running > the show, they just haven't surfaced. When Informix gets a pair of balls in > the marketing department then we'll see things change. Haven't seen men at > Informix since Phil left. Just khaki-pants-shit-for-brains. > > > If you want to get management mindshare you need to talk their talk. And > > anyone paying attention to Oracle's salesforce isn't hearing them brag > > about benchmarks and ticks on the clock. They are talking about that > > which is required to comply with the ever-tightening laws in the EU and > > other countries. > > Oracle is good at what they do, my opinion of course doesn't really > matter one way or the other as to Oracles' success. As long as there > is the 80/20 rule in effect, Oracle's future remains bright. > > >> Informix needs to get marketed, but that can't happen if IBM won't let > >> it. > > > Won't let it or chooses not to? Developers putting in new features are > > a lot cheaper than a serious marketing and sales campaign. > > I wouldn't index one to the other, Oracle is proof of that. > > >> Imagine what Larry Ellison would really say if IBM started > >> to really push IDS. Now THAT would be interesting. > > > With that thought in mind ... I imagine he's sleeping well tonight. > > He's depending on IBM to keep the status quo, and their arrogance > to keep the company mediocre. Hell, Oracle runs on IBM hardware, > Oracle wins either way it doesn't really matter... > > -- > -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine > --http://www.informix.com > -- If your a consultant being asked by a CIO to evaluate a DBMS, which DBMS will provide the most job security for u as a consultant? If your a CIO and someone recommends Informix instead of Oracle or SQL Server, will you accept it or do a double take and start asking why? Its becoming very difficult for app. providers to support products like IDS because there just aren't enough businesses requesting apps running Informix. And app providers can't afford to certify on every DBMS. The reason Informix IDS has survived is because of a loyal and passionate install base who've come to recognize the worth of the product. They were willing to take a risk by using Informix and were rewarded because the product actually works as advertised. Its a huge mountain to climb to try and displace Oracle or compete with Mr.Softee. For those willing to do due diligence, the reward can be quite substantial (ask Cisco).

Serge Rielau wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. > > Cheers > Serge Three responses and three different answers. I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. You say with SELECT triggers. Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> > >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > > Now Daniel, you seem to be quick to ask for features that have long been > supported by IDS, why not ask about an oracle centric extension. > > Here's one... > In an SQL Oracle supports a CONNECT BY clause which allows for a > hierarchial query. > > I guess i'm old fashion in that I just use a prepared statement and a > recursive routine. > > I don't think that IDS supports it, but I could be wrong. > > So why don't you attempt to tout this features value as to why Oracle is > supperior to IDS? Because it is not necessarily the best solution to the problem: Ask Joe Celko his opinion for example. And my point is not to produce a list of features in A not in B or in B and not in A. That list would be lopsided and horrendously long. But look on the bright side ... you finally got MVCC and Oracle will never get dirty reads. <g> -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

DA Morgan wrote: > Three responses and three different answers. > > I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. > Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. > Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. > You say with SELECT triggers. > > Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. Actually I merely repeated. There many way to chop a Peking Duck... Cheers Serge -- Serge Rielau DB2 Solutions Development IBM Toronto Lab

On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote: > Serge Rielau wrote: > > DA Morgan wrote: > >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other > >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the > >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. > > > Cheers > > Serge > > Three responses and three different answers. > > I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. > Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. > Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. > You say with SELECT triggers. > > Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. > -- > Daniel A. Morgan > University of Washington > damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) All of the above (some depending on version - ie 7.xx & 9.xx don't support SELECT triggers, 10.00 & 11.10 do). Art S. Kagel

Daniel- Any and all of these can be the right answer depending on what you want to see. If you want to watch what users are doing as they do it, you should try I-Spy, if you want to record every access of large numbers of tables use onaudit, if you want to track accesses of just a few tables select triggers will do the job without the added overhead of onaudit. FYI: The select trigger can be configured to record just about anything you would want to know about a query that was run: Who did it, what data did they see, etc. --EEM > -----Original Message----- > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of DA Morgan > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:18 AM > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: Re: Informix beats Oracle > > Serge Rielau wrote: > > DA Morgan wrote: > >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other > >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the > >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. > > > > Cheers > > Serge > > Three responses and three different answers. > > I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. > Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. > Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. > You say with SELECT triggers. > > Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. > -- > Daniel A. Morgan > University of Washington > damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) > _______________________________________________ > Informix-list mailing list > Informix-list@iiug.org > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

> DA Morgan wrote: >> Three responses and three different answers. >> >> I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. >> Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. >> Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. >> You say with SELECT triggers. >> >> Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. > Actually I merely repeated. > There many way to chop a Peking Duck... > > Cheers > Serge > -- > Serge Rielau > DB2 Solutions Development > IBM Toronto Lab If you want to chop up that Peking Duck using a blunt object you could use SQLIDEBUG and sqliprint. Andrew IBM Informix Dynamic Server - It works all the time so I don't have to. oninit -i onstat -am onmode -lucky

pokeyman wrote: > On Jun 27, 8:04 pm, Tool <t...@thetool.com> wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> Tool wrote: >>>> Part of the fuel that makes Oracle sell so well is an abundance of >>>> management folks that don't have a technical background enough to >>>> understand the issues, so they buy Oracle not because of technical >>>> reasons, but simply because they don't know any better--it's safe. >>>> Same for buying into SQL-Server, or any other technology that has good >>>> marketing. >>> That may be part of it but if it is it is a small part. You guys are >>> talking geek talk not management talk. All one ever hears in this group >>> is speed and CPU utilization. >> Some do. Not all of us are on technical-only topics. >> >>> Join an Oracle conversation and you hear questions about Fine Grained >>> Auditing, Backup Encryption, Compliance, AES 256, etc. >> These conversations take place regardless of the database in use, and >> as you are most likely aware, especially in larger organizations, all >> kinds of products are in use, Oracle, SQL-Server, MySQL, DB2, even >> Informix I hear is still in use in a couple of shops out there. >> >>> People in management when confronted with issues of speed and CPU know >>> they can throw money at the problem and make it go away. Need more CPUs: >>> Buy more CPUs. >> True, but this is not all management, and not all situations. There _are_ >> actually people using cost-effective solutions without any religious fervor >> towards what they use, purely business minded people finding the cheapest, >> most cost-effective solution they can find. Which is why Informix has a great >> opportunity to compete. But you have to have people in at IBM at the top that really >> understand the market, and I don't think IBM has those kinds of people running >> the show, they just haven't surfaced. When Informix gets a pair of balls in >> the marketing department then we'll see things change. Haven't seen men at >> Informix since Phil left. Just khaki-pants-shit-for-brains. >> >>> If you want to get management mindshare you need to talk their talk. And >>> anyone paying attention to Oracle's salesforce isn't hearing them brag >>> about benchmarks and ticks on the clock. They are talking about that >>> which is required to comply with the ever-tightening laws in the EU and >>> other countries. >> Oracle is good at what they do, my opinion of course doesn't really >> matter one way or the other as to Oracles' success. As long as there >> is the 80/20 rule in effect, Oracle's future remains bright. >> >>>> Informix needs to get marketed, but that can't happen if IBM won't let >>>> it. >>> Won't let it or chooses not to? Developers putting in new features are >>> a lot cheaper than a serious marketing and sales campaign. >> I wouldn't index one to the other, Oracle is proof of that. >> >>>> Imagine what Larry Ellison would really say if IBM started >>>> to really push IDS. Now THAT would be interesting. >>> With that thought in mind ... I imagine he's sleeping well tonight. >> He's depending on IBM to keep the status quo, and their arrogance >> to keep the company mediocre. Hell, Oracle runs on IBM hardware, >> Oracle wins either way it doesn't really matter... >> >> -- >> -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine >> --http://www.informix.com >> -- > > If your a consultant being asked by a CIO to evaluate a DBMS, which > DBMS will provide the most job security for u as a consultant? Lets ask your question another way. If you are a consultant, I am one, you are asking to evaluate a DBMS in the context of what current applications, infrastructure and expertise already exist. They want something that will require minimum retraining of existing personnel. They want something that will give them maximum access to the pool of available technical talent in their geographic region. They want something that will integrate with their existing financial, HR, CRM, and other systems. They want something where they can easily get training for their current and future prospects. They want something that makes facilitates compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPAA, FACTA, BASEL II and their own internal compliance and governance rules. And yes they want something that will be fast and within their budget. But that is FAR DOWN THE LIST ... something geeks rarely get. C-Level management knows things you don't know. They know that the biggest cost in such matters is not the hardware and the software. They know the network and storage related costs won't change no matter which vendor they choose (though Oracle is going to change that equation before the year is over). If you think you can sell an RDBMS to C-Level management based on CPU utilization and speed you are not paying attention: Oracle and Microsoft, however, are as their sales number clearly reflect. If you want Informix to survive you've got to come up with a compelling business case. Tics on the clock haven't been one since the early 1980s. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Art S. Kagel wrote: > On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote: >> Serge Rielau wrote: >>> DA Morgan wrote: >>>> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >>>> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >>>> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. >>> It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it >>> yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. >>> Cheers >>> Serge >> Three responses and three different answers. >> >> I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. >> Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. >> Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. >> You say with SELECT triggers. >> >> Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. >> -- >> Daniel A. Morgan >> University of Washington >> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) > > All of the above (some depending on version - ie 7.xx & 9.xx don't > support SELECT triggers, 10.00 & 11.10 do). > > Art S. Kagel Thanks. And Serge I'll buy you that duck if you come out here. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

DA Morgan wrote: > Serge Rielau wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >>> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >>> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. >> It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it >> yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. >> >> Cheers >> Serge > > Three responses and three different answers. > > I received a personal email pointing me to I-Spy. > Carsten says you do it with standard auditing. > Madison says "DBA sets up onaudit" which I presume is the same thing. > You say with SELECT triggers. > > Is any/all of this correct? Thanks. I-Spy is a tool which allows you to trace the low-level communication between the client application and the server. Using triggers is a possible way of tracing changes to a table. onaudit is a component of the server which does auditing. All three are possible ways of auditing database changes.

pokeyman wrote: > If your a consultant being asked by a CIO to evaluate a DBMS, which > DBMS will provide the most job security for u as a consultant? I think you ask a good question, but I also think as a consultant I'm asked to understand what is required in terms of functionality, and in that regard alone, IDS doesn't stand a chance if nobody really sees it out there. Telling the faithful is one thing, it has to get beyond the loyal 3% of the market to get into an evaluation or proof-of-concept. For example, the CTO says, "tell me what the best DB is for this application.". Why would IDS be important? Does it save them money? Is it reliable? Who will we find to run it, and support it? In a matrix truth-table of qualified databases, you could put a pretty long list together for one application and a short list for others. But really as you suggest, why would I push IDS, especially since there's nothing in it for me, and I'd have to put my reputation on the line if it doesn't deliver? In the back of my mind I'm feeling like IDS is probably the one to pick, but since it's basically an unknown, and we'd all have to discover its features, what's the benefit to _me_ to push it over something else with more market presence? As we were talking last week, you should note that there are a few out there that don't mind paying up front on IDS to check out its features, or take a crippled version to check it out. In a real proof-of-concept I'd only use what we would use in production, so the IIUG version is out of the equation. As someone who'd like to develop applications on IDS I'm certainly not willing to pay money for something when I can develop apps on something else I don't have to pay for. That's just good business sense, and believe me I make great money on other databases that I haven't paid a dime for. I've developed apps, business relationships, and real billable money keeping my cost down, not spending it on speculative products that I may or may not be able to make money with. > If your > a CIO and someone recommends Informix instead of Oracle or SQL Server, > will you accept it or do a double take and start asking why? I would be shocked, and yes, ask why. I'd like to know if they are really on board with supporting the software and the person supporting it, or if it's without a sponsor, and it's an off-radar experiment. > Its > becoming very difficult for app. providers to support products like > IDS because there just aren't enough businesses requesting apps > running Informix. And app providers can't afford to certify on every > DBMS. Which came first? This is why I keep railing on about having a REAL developer program that pushes the real IDS out there for free, getting it in the hands of developers. This goes hand-in-hand with a real, live, developer program with IDS marketing programs that PUSH THE PRODUCT. Developers are the key, not just pushing down from the top management. > The reason Informix IDS has survived is because of a loyal and > passionate install base who've come to recognize the worth of the > product. They were willing to take a risk by using Informix and were > rewarded because the product actually works as advertised. Its a huge > mountain to climb to try and displace Oracle or compete with > Mr.Softee. For those willing to do due diligence, the reward can be > quite substantial (ask Cisco). > Yah. In another month IDS will once again be forgotten. You can count on it. -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- http://www.informix.com --

Serge Rielau wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> But quick question ... can you audit SELECT statements in IDS? In other >> words ... who requested which rows of data? If so I'd appreciate the >> name of the feature for further research. Thanks. > It was listed just yesterday, perhaps your server hasn't replicated it > yet. IDS uses SELECT TRIGGER for that purpose. You do NOT use a SELECT TRIGGER for auditing. It is too easy to evade them. -- Jonathan Leffler #include <disclaimer.h> Email: jleffler@earthlink.net, jleffler@us.ibm.com Guardian of DBD::Informix v2007.0226 -- http://dbi.perl.org/