Re: Oracle 10G

I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require training form a company like yours. Just to give an Idea... I have been a DBA for more then 7 years and work for a big Teleconferencing company (225M a year of our Devision) as the Lead Production DBA with 3 DBAs working with me. I have a key hand in the direction of the companies systems and providing anything that senior management can dream up. I know Informix, Oracle, MySQL, M$ SQL, and have been a programmer as well working with perl, C, C++ and others. It is common in my day for me to train someone that has a Degree and is over 30 to complete some task they should already know how to do. This includes Database, Programming, Networking, and Systems questions. There are people and companies that forget there are generations of people that have been raised programming computers and can have a better understanding of the technology then those that have been in the field for 20 or 30 years. To know that I can be singled out of learning because I don't fit a view of what a good DBA or program is just sad. I would hope that all requirements would be flexible to the needs of the student and be based on merit not just some standard set so high to keep from having attracted a discrimination suite that would come from setting a limit like age. I hope my soap box is still in tack after my above rant and sailing weather comes soon. Eric B. Rowell On Wed, 2004-03-03 at 12:14, Daniel Morgan wrote: > Jack Parker wrote: > > > I must say it's different reading only half of the conversation. DM must > > have excellent students to have this much free time on his hands. > > > > cheers > > j. > > I do. The classes I teach are not for 20 year olds. To qualify for > the Oracle classes requires a minimum of an undergraduate degree so > the program attracts 90+% industry professionals looking for > additional skills. Most already have 1 or 2 RDBMS products under > their belt and many Java and C too. So 6 hours of lecture per week > is all I have to do and the rest of my time is free for other pursuits > and the weather is not yet conducive for sailing. sending to informix-list

Comments in-line. Eric Rowell wrote: > I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the > point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's > this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came > to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require > training form a company like yours. You wouldn't expect to get into a medical school without an undergraduate degree would you? Why would you expect a university to make an exception because the field is IT? > Just to give an Idea... I have been a DBA for more then 7 years and > work for a big Teleconferencing company (225M a year of our Devision) as > the Lead Production DBA with 3 DBAs working with me. I have a key hand > in the direction of the companies systems and providing anything that > senior management can dream up. I know Informix, Oracle, MySQL, M$ SQL, > and have been a programmer as well working with perl, C, C++ and > others. It is common in my day for me to train someone that has a > Degree and is over 30 to complete some task they should already know how > to do. This includes Database, Programming, Networking, and Systems > questions. As the instructor I am allowed to waive the requirement in the case of industry knowledge. But so far I've turned away students every year, we only accept 60 (another reason for offense? I hope not.) so it has never been an issue. I am currently talking with another major university on offering a similar program and they too will be looking at the very same entrance requirements. > There are people and companies that forget there are generations of > people that have been raised programming computers and can have a better > understanding of the technology then those that have been in the field > for 20 or 30 years. 70 years ago the exact same argument was made by those practicing medicine. They wanted to have hospital privileges. The argument doesn't wash today any more than it did then. I don't say this to cause further offense or due to some huge ego but most people in IT have an over-inflated sense of their own abilities. And the number of failed projects and the number of wasted dollars are testament enough to that being fact. > To know that I can be singled out of learning because I don't fit a > view of what a good DBA or program is just sad. Or a medical school, or a law school, or an engineering school, etc. I would hope that all > requirements would be flexible to the needs of the student and be based > on merit not just some standard set so high to keep from having > attracted a discrimination suite that would come from setting a limit > like age. > > I hope my soap box is still in tack after my above rant and sailing > weather comes soon. > > Eric B. Rowell We have the ability to offer an exemption but have never been asked to do so. Please keep in mind this is a university not a for-profit corporation. If 5000 people apply to the program ... only 60 get in. So the rules are a bit different from those of a certification mill. To give you an idea of the type of people that have successfully graduated from the program ... I have one student that was sent over by her company from Japan and is currently back in Osaka at Siebel. Another that entered with a Masters Degree in Engineering and has subsequently earned another in Computer Science and is now at Boeing in Houston, Texas. These people are not slouches by any definition. The truth is that I too would have a hard time getting into the very program that I teach. ;-) -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Eric Rowell wrote: > I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the > point of being offended. Mine weren't mixed at all. I thought Daniel was being a pompous asshole. :o) Still, if he can get away with 6 hours work a week and make enough money to afford sailing, more power to his elbow. Or wrist. Or whatever sailors use. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche

Daniel Morgan wrote: > Eric Rowell wrote: > >> I have mixed feelings on your class requirements and almost to the >> point of being offended. Since I don't have a degree and am in my 20's >> this would make me have to take my money somewhere else if it ever came >> to be that I had to return to the programming world and would require >> training form a company like yours. > > You wouldn't expect to get into a medical school without an > undergraduate degree would you? Why would you expect a university to > make an exception because the field is IT? Uhhhh... whatever. Some of the most exceptional consultants I've had work for me were worshipped by the multi-national corporates they looked after, yet had never even seen the inside of a university. Some of the biggest idiots I ever saw had graduated and been on extended training somewhat akin to what you run (I'm guessing here, I've not been on your course.) This is not a blanket generalisation to say that all academically qualified people are idiots, but degrees up the wazoo is no guarantee that someone is useful in IT. > 70 years ago the exact same argument was made by those practicing > medicine. They wanted to have hospital privileges. The argument doesn't > wash today any more than it did then. There is a substantial difference in that an IT practitioner is unlikely to kill someone in the day to day job through a lack of theoretical knowledge. > I don't say this to cause further > offense or due to some huge ego but most people in IT have an > over-inflated sense of their own abilities. Ipse dixit. > And the number of failed > projects and the number of wasted dollars are testament enough to that > being fact. Well, a lot of those dollars (in my experience) get wasted by a surfeit of academic education without a grasp of reality. Primarily because idiots have been taught the theory and go out and apply that theory in places where there are differences to the ideal world. >> To know that I can be singled out of learning because I don't fit a >> view of what a good DBA or program is just sad. > > Or a medical school, or a law school, or an engineering school, etc. Bollocks to that. When there are legal and regulatory issues, or when lives are at stake, you can use that argument. If I was to extend your reasoning, then I'd have to say that in order to sweep streets you need a degree in "sanitation engineering" or a degree in optics and technology to run a photocopier. Or a degree in communications to run a switchboard. > To give you an idea of the type of people that have successfully > graduated from the program ... I have one student that was sent over > by her company from Japan and is currently back in Osaka at Siebel. > Another that entered with a Masters Degree in Engineering and has > subsequently earned another in Computer Science and is now at Boeing > in Houston, Texas. These people are not slouches by any definition. Whoop de do. That's two underwhelming references out of 60 x how many years have you been doing this? I'm not knocking academics, I've known many fascinating and impressive people who are in the parallel universe, but by the same token if I had the choice of using someone who just had a hatful of degrees or someone who had some scars and had done things, I know who'd get my vote every time. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche

Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > There is a substantial difference in that an IT practitioner is unlikely to > kill someone in the day to day job through a lack of theoretical knowledge. Perhaps you would like to explain that to all of the people writing database software that control the dispensing of prescription drugs, application of toxins, medical licensing, national security, and the stuff that keeps those planes Boeing and Airbus make in the air. >>And the number of failed >>projects and the number of wasted dollars are testament enough to that >>being fact. > > > Well, a lot of those dollars (in my experience) get wasted by a surfeit of > academic education without a grasp of reality. Primarily because idiots > have been taught the theory and go out and apply that theory in places > where there are differences to the ideal world. You are the one throwing around the word 'theory'. I didn't use it once. I'd suggest you take a look at where along the road you came to the totally eroneous conclusion that that is what is taught. Because it sure didn't come from me. Nor does it reflect more than 2% of what is taught. >>Or a medical school, or a law school, or an engineering school, etc. > > Bollocks to that. When there are legal and regulatory issues, or when lives > are at stake, you can use that argument. If you can't answer this question my spelling it out probably won't help. Databases put lives at risk each and every day. And not in trivial numbers or in trivial ways. If I was to extend your reasoning, > then I'd have to say that in order to sweep streets you need a degree in > "sanitation engineering" or a degree in optics and technology to run a > photocopier. Or a degree in communications to run a switchboard. Good attempt at diversion but it fails. 1. You don't need a degree to sweep the streets but you probably do to write the EPA reports and meet legal requirements. 2. You don't need a degree to run a photocopier. But you sure need one to design and build one. 3. You don't need a degree to run a switchboard but you sure need one to design and build one. 4. And you don't need a degree to use a database but you sure need one to design and build one. Sounds to me like you don't have a degree and are fearful that my students, and those like them, are going to turn you from a developer to a consumer just like your examples. > I'm not knocking academics, I've known many fascinating and impressive > people who are in the parallel universe, but by the same token if I had the > choice of using someone who just had a hatful of degrees or someone who had > some scars and had done things, I know who'd get my vote every time. There was a time when people without degrees could do the job. They are a dying breed just like those of my generation that learned on Fortran and punchcards ... or breadboards. There were no IT degrees when we got our start. But my guess is that you won't be in IT 10-15 years from now when you are asked by management to compete against 30-40 year olds with degrees. This industry was the wild west in its infancy but it is maturing. And in the current marketplace more and more job adds are demanding a degree. It will become the rule rather than the exception in the not too distant future. There is more going on in Bangalore than just lower wages. The people there are all degreed: And it shows. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)