RE: Just a little tease on how to place proper product spin.

Gee! Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? The purpose of the exercise is to think. Sure its easy to poke fun of the marketing department. Most people here have never done sales. The key here is how do you answer a question that doesn't do the following: 1) Play one product against another. 2) Open yourself up to *more* questions that *you* *dont* want to address. 3) Detract from the message that you want to project. I've been accused of ripping on IDS management and not being positive. Yet here's a positive post and the only two responses have been you, being negative, and Mark Townsend a developer and employee of Oracle who would rather spend time here than actually work on making Oracle a better product. It works, but you have to throw lots of hardware to make it work well enough. (And don't get me started on some of the "certified" Oracle DBAs walking around. IDS may be simpler, but I'd take an IDS certified DBA over an Oracle certified DBA.) So when I try to get those who also criticize IDS marketing and sales management to try and think in a more creative and positive way, they don't want to be bothered. Product management doesn't really grok the sales mentality. I've told them countless times that you need to change the PBCs of certain individuals to make real change happen. They haven't done that. Why? Because they don't understand what motivates the S&D team. Or their management. Hint: PBCs indirectly affect their pay. The point of the "spin" game is an effort to get individuals to modify how they think about a given topic. Oracle is great at doing this while they sell smoke and mirrors. The truth is... Its easier to be negative and bitch about a problem than to solve it. When given an opportunity to add your two cents, you bitch. But hey! What do I know? I've actually done more behind the scenes that just bitch... ;-) -G > From: indeep@indeep.com> Subject: Re: Just a little tease on how to place proper product spin.> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:12:00 -0700> To: informix-list@iiug.org> > Ian Michael Gumby wrote:> > Lets play a game...> > > > We all know that IDS's problems aren't in the product development team. > > But in how the product is being positioned and presented to the > > industry, their customers,press/analysts and of course IBM's very own > > S&D team. So lets tease Jerry and his crew (Cathy and Bernie) and > > suggest, a much better market position statement.> >> > Why bother.> > > Sure we all want to say "Keep IDS in the LUW aka "Distributed" world, > > and place DB2 on the mainframe and AS/400 aka I series. While we know > > that will never happen, it is still a very viable option and one that > > IBM should consider.> > What makes you think anyone gives a shit.> > > (And of course, support those customers who are already on DB2 in LUW > > world.) -- Just Kidding. IBM would never do this. Serge would lose his > > job and be forced to work for Oracle or Microsoft... 8-0 :-)> > > > But lets get serious, yes, even Gumby can get serious... ;-):> > > > I believe it was Bernie who did the IDS "whitepaper" interview which did > > a horrendous of product positioning.> > HEY IBM, HERE"S A FREE CLUE. THE NEXT TIME YOU'RE ASKED THIS QUESTION... > > CONSIDER THIS AS YOUR ANSWER...:> > > > A: "We [IBM] believe that we're in an excellent position because we have > > two thoroughbred racehorses in our stable. Through the Informix > > acquisition, we have acquired not only talented engineers and > > developers, but also a product that has an incredibly loyal fan base. > > That fan base exists because IDS is an easy to maintain, performance > > beast, well suited for embedded solutions, OLTP solutions, and > > datamarts. Through their acquistion of Illustra, they also have > > extensibility that will allow them to adapt to "web 2.0" type > > applications, along with the high end custom solutions that some of our > > customers need. Contrast this to DB2 whose lineage comes from the > > Mainframe. Well suited for handling large volumes of data and large data > > warehouses. Products like SAP have been specifically tuned for DB2.> > > > So when we look at the customers' needs, we can supply an engine that > > can meet their diverse requirements. From one end of the spectrum, we > > have IDS. The other, DB2. Together, our product base covers *all* of the > > customers' needs...."> > > > Q: "What about product overlap?"> > A: "We [IBM] believe that the overlap is actually a good thing. Both > > products adhere to the DRDA standard, so that our DRDA compliant tools > > will work with either database. These databases can work well within > > environments together and compliment each other. No other company can do > > this. Product overlap also gives a customer choice. If they've started > > with IDS and they are comfortable with IDS, they can stay with IDS. The > > say is true of DB2. IBM is working to keep both products in parity when > > they can. Technology is shared between both engines. "> > > > > > -=-> > > > I think you get the point. No bashing of either product. Each product > > receives equal footing.> > > > So you're saying the marketing department is filled with cocksucking sychophants.> > > > > Now here's the Game.> > Its your job to poke holes in these statements.> > As you poke a hole, then find a counter argument that defends this position.> > The more you do this, the stronger the argument becomes.> >> > Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?> > A: A Slap in the face.> > > > With respect to the sales force... That's a different story.> > And that is something I'd be happy to work on with IBM. Sales critters > > speak a differnt language. ;-)> > > > > > Sun is moving to Ubuntu. What does that tell you? An invincible company> that has totally lost its way. They'd never go x86, never go Linux, never> go open source, never open-source-java, the list goes on. Now they do all> of the above, trying to find relevance. They can't even give away Solaris,> nobody cares. What else do they have? They have to buy companies because> they lost their way.> > Soon IBM will cease to be relevant. It's coming.> > Microsoft, invincible. Now comes Vista, a total, gargantuan flop.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see where things can go when people get> arrogant and think they can't fall. IBM will be next. It's coming, get> ready for it. Informix went thru it once, deja vu all over again.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see Apple's iPhone in a little bit larger> size, as a fully blowed out laptop. Totally capitalizing on the market.> > I am eagerly looking forward to IBM hitting the wall.> > It's coming.> > Get ready.> > -ID-> > > > _______________________________________________> Informix-list mailing list> Informix-list@iiug.org> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list _________________________________________________________________ More immediate than e-mail? 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On 8 Apr, 13:57, Ian Michael Gumby <im_gu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Gee! > > Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? > > The purpose of the exercise is to think. > Sure its easy to poke fun of the marketing department. Most people here have never done sales. > > The key here is how do you answer a question that doesn't do the following: > > 1) Play one product against another. > 2) Open yourself up to *more* questions that *you* *dont* want to address. > 3) Detract from the message that you want to project. > I've been accused of ripping on IDS management and not being positive. > Yet here's a positive post and the only two responses have been you, being negative, and Mark Townsend a developer and employee of Oracle who would rather spend time here than actually work on making Oracle a better product. It works, but you have to throw lots of hardware to make it work well enough. (And don't get me started on some of the "certified" Oracle DBAs walking around. IDS may be simpler, but I'd take an IDS certified DBA over an Oracle certified DBA.) > > So when I try to get those who also criticize IDS marketing and sales management to try and think in a more creative and positive way, they don't want to be bothered. > > Product management doesn't really grok the sales mentality. I've told them countless times that you need to change the PBCs of certain individuals to make real change happen. They haven't done that. Why? Because they don't understand what motivates the S&D team. Or their management. Hint: PBCs indirectly affect their pay. > > The point of the "spin" game is an effort to get individuals to modify how they think about a given topic. Oracle is great at doing this while they sell smoke and mirrors. > > The truth is... Its easier to be negative and bitch about a problem than to solve it. > When given an opportunity to add your two cents, you bitch. > > But hey! What do I know? > I've actually done more behind the scenes that just bitch... ;-) > > -G > > > From: ind...@indeep.com> Subject: Re: Just a little tease on how to place proper product spin.> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:12:00 -0700> To: informix-l...@iiug.org> > Ian Michael Gumby wrote:> > Lets play a game...> > > > We all know that IDS's problems aren't in the product development team. > > But in how the product is being positioned and presented to the > > industry, their customers,press/analysts and of course IBM's very own > > S&D team. So lets tease Jerry and his crew (Cathy and Bernie) and > > suggest, a much better market position statement.> >> > Why bother.> > > Sure we all want to say "Keep IDS in the LUW aka "Distributed" world, > > and place DB2 on the mainframe and AS/400 aka I series. While we know > > that will never happen, it is still a very viable option and one that > > IBM should consider.> > What makes you think anyone gives a shit.> > > (And of course, support those customers who are already on DB2 in LUW > > world.) -- Just Kidding. IBM would never do this. Serge would lose his > > job and be forced to work for Oracle or Microsoft... 8-0 :-)> > > > But lets get serious, yes, even Gumby can get serious... ;-):> > > > I believe it was Bernie who did the IDS "whitepaper" interview which did > > a horrendous of product positioning.> > HEY IBM, HERE"S A FREE CLUE. THE NEXT TIME YOU'RE ASKED THIS QUESTION... > > CONSIDER THIS AS YOUR ANSWER...:> > > > A: "We [IBM] believe that we're in an excellent position because we have > > two thoroughbred racehorses in our stable. Through the Informix > > acquisition, we have acquired not only talented engineers and > > developers, but also a product that has an incredibly loyal fan base. > > That fan base exists because IDS is an easy to maintain, performance > > beast, well suited for embedded solutions, OLTP solutions, and > > datamarts. Through their acquistion of Illustra, they also have > > extensibility that will allow them to adapt to "web 2.0" type > > applications, along with the high end custom solutions that some of our > > customers need. Contrast this to DB2 whose lineage comes from the > > Mainframe. Well suited for handling large volumes of data and large data > > warehouses. Products like SAP have been specifically tuned for DB2.> > > > So when we look at the customers' needs, we can supply an engine that > > can meet their diverse requirements. From one end of the spectrum, we > > have IDS. The other, DB2. Together, our product base covers *all* of the > > customers' needs...."> > > > Q: "What about product overlap?"> > A: "We [IBM] believe that the overlap is actually a good thing. Both > > products adhere to the DRDA standard, so that our DRDA compliant tools > > will work with either database. These databases can work well within > > environments together and compliment each other. No other company can do > > this. Product overlap also gives a customer choice. If they've started > > with IDS and they are comfortable with IDS, they can stay with IDS. The > > say is true of DB2. IBM is working to keep both products in parity when > > they can. Technology is shared between both engines. "> > > > > > -=-> > > > I think you get the point. No bashing of either product. Each product > > receives equal footing.> > > > So you're saying the marketing department is filled with cocksucking sychophants.> > > > > Now here's the Game.> > Its your job to poke holes in these statements.> > As you poke a hole, then find a counter argument that defends this position.> > The more you do this, the stronger the argument becomes.> >> > Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?> > A: A Slap in the face.> > > > With respect to the sales force... That's a different story.> > And that is something I'd be happy to work on with IBM. Sales critters > > speak a differnt language. ;-)> > > > > > Sun is moving to Ubuntu. What does that tell you? An invincible company> that has totally lost its way. They'd never go x86, never go Linux, never> go open source, never open-source-java, the list goes on. Now they do all> of the above, trying to find relevance. They can't even give away Solaris,> nobody cares. What else do they have? They have to buy companies because> they lost their way.> > Soon IBM will cease to be relevant. It's coming.> > Microsoft, invincible. Now comes Vista, a total, gargantuan flop.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see where things can go when people get> arrogant and think they can't fall. IBM will be next. It's coming, get> ready for it. Informix went thru it once, deja vu all over again.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see Apple's iPhone in a little bit larger> size, as a fully blowed out laptop. Totally capitalizing on the market.> > I am eagerly looking forward to IBM hitting the wall.> > It's coming.> > Get ready.> > -ID-> > > > _______________________________________________> Informix-list mailing list> Informix-l...@iiug.org>http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list > > _________________________________________________________________ > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_... What is a PBC?

On Apr 8, 2:24 pm, "da...@smooth1.co.uk" <da...@smooth1.co.uk> wrote: > On 8 Apr, 13:57, Ian Michael Gumby <im_gu...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Gee! > > > Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? > > > The purpose of the exercise is to think. > > Sure its easy to poke fun of the marketing department. Most people here have never done sales. > > > The key here is how do you answer a question that doesn't do the following: > > > 1) Play one product against another. > > 2) Open yourself up to *more* questions that *you* *dont* want to address. > > 3) Detract from the message that you want to project. > > I've been accused of ripping on IDS management and not being positive. > > Yet here's a positive post and the only two responses have been you, being negative, and Mark Townsend a developer and employee of Oracle who would rather spend time here than actually work on making Oracle a better product. It works, but you have to throw lots of hardware to make it work well enough. (And don't get me started on some of the "certified" Oracle DBAs walking around. IDS may be simpler, but I'd take an IDS certified DBA over an Oracle certified DBA.) > > > So when I try to get those who also criticize IDS marketing and sales management to try and think in a more creative and positive way, they don't want to be bothered. > > > Product management doesn't really grok the sales mentality. I've told them countless times that you need to change the PBCs of certain individuals to make real change happen. They haven't done that. Why? Because they don't understand what motivates the S&D team. Or their management. Hint: PBCs indirectly affect their pay. > > > The point of the "spin" game is an effort to get individuals to modify how they think about a given topic. Oracle is great at doing this while they sell smoke and mirrors. > > > The truth is... Its easier to be negative and bitch about a problem than to solve it. > > When given an opportunity to add your two cents, you bitch. > > > But hey! What do I know? > > I've actually done more behind the scenes that just bitch... ;-) > > > -G > > > > From: ind...@indeep.com> Subject: Re: Just a little tease on how to place proper product spin.> Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:12:00 -0700> To: informix-l...@iiug.org> > Ian Michael Gumby wrote:> > Lets play a game...> > > > We all know that IDS's problems aren't in the product development team. > > But in how the product is being positioned and presented to the > > industry, their customers,press/analysts and of course IBM's very own > > S&D team. So lets tease Jerry and his crew (Cathy and Bernie) and > > suggest, a much better market position statement.> >> > Why bother.> > > Sure we all want to say "Keep IDS in the LUW aka "Distributed" world, > > and place DB2 on the mainframe and AS/400 aka I series. While we know > > that will never happen, it is still a very viable option and one that > > IBM should consider.> > What makes you think anyone gives a shit.> > > (And of course, support those customers who are already on DB2 in LUW > > world.) -- Just Kidding. IBM would never do this. Serge would lose his > > job and be forced to work for Oracle or Microsoft... 8-0 :-)> > > > But lets get serious, yes, even Gumby can get serious... ;-):> > > > I believe it was Bernie who did the IDS "whitepaper" interview which did > > a horrendous of product positioning.> > HEY IBM, HERE"S A FREE CLUE. THE NEXT TIME YOU'RE ASKED THIS QUESTION... > > CONSIDER THIS AS YOUR ANSWER...:> > > > A: "We [IBM] believe that we're in an excellent position because we have > > two thoroughbred racehorses in our stable. Through the Informix > > acquisition, we have acquired not only talented engineers and > > developers, but also a product that has an incredibly loyal fan base. > > That fan base exists because IDS is an easy to maintain, performance > > beast, well suited for embedded solutions, OLTP solutions, and > > datamarts. Through their acquistion of Illustra, they also have > > extensibility that will allow them to adapt to "web 2.0" type > > applications, along with the high end custom solutions that some of our > > customers need. Contrast this to DB2 whose lineage comes from the > > Mainframe. Well suited for handling large volumes of data and large data > > warehouses. Products like SAP have been specifically tuned for DB2.> > > > So when we look at the customers' needs, we can supply an engine that > > can meet their diverse requirements. From one end of the spectrum, we > > have IDS. The other, DB2. Together, our product base covers *all* of the > > customers' needs...."> > > > Q: "What about product overlap?"> > A: "We [IBM] believe that the overlap is actually a good thing. Both > > products adhere to the DRDA standard, so that our DRDA compliant tools > > will work with either database. These databases can work well within > > environments together and compliment each other. No other company can do > > this. Product overlap also gives a customer choice. If they've started > > with IDS and they are comfortable with IDS, they can stay with IDS. The > > say is true of DB2. IBM is working to keep both products in parity when > > they can. Technology is shared between both engines. "> > > > > > -=-> > > > I think you get the point. No bashing of either product. Each product > > receives equal footing.> > > > So you're saying the marketing department is filled with cocksucking sychophants.> > > > > Now here's the Game.> > Its your job to poke holes in these statements.> > As you poke a hole, then find a counter argument that defends this position.> > The more you do this, the stronger the argument becomes.> >> > Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?> > A: A Slap in the face.> > > > With respect to the sales force... That's a different story.> > And that is something I'd be happy to work on with IBM. Sales critters > > speak a differnt language. ;-)> > > > > > Sun is moving to Ubuntu. What does that tell you? An invincible company> that has totally lost its way. They'd never go x86, never go Linux, never> go open source, never open-source-java, the list goes on. Now they do all> of the above, trying to find relevance. They can't even give away Solaris,> nobody cares. What else do they have? They have to buy companies because> they lost their way.> > Soon IBM will cease to be relevant. It's coming.> > Microsoft, invincible. Now comes Vista, a total, gargantuan flop.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see where things can go when people get> arrogant and think they can't fall. IBM will be next. It's coming, get> ready for it. Informix went thru it once, deja vu all over again.> > It doesn't take much imagination to see Apple's iPhone in a little bit larger> size, as a fully blowed out laptop. Totally capitalizing on the market.> > I am eagerly looking forward to IBM hitting the wall.> > It's coming.> > Get ready.> > -ID-> > > > _______________________________________________> Informix-list mailing list> Informix-l...@iiug.org>http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_... > > What is a PBC? "Pure Bullshit Continuously" - why do you even give this Gumby character a reason to write guys? I've never heard a line of crap so long, and the incredible name-dropping and acronym-dropping is hilarious! Gumby doesn't know whether to shoot hims