Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The Next Informix IDS Release...
Not a technical thread: it's an argument about IIUG and IBM conferences. One poster complains the IIUG board doesn't press the community's long-standing gripes about conference cost/format with IBM while being IBM-funded, and gave IBM's IOD event only a passing mention. IIUG board member JG Perrin rejects this, explaining large events (IOD, IDUG) cost more because they can't run on volunteers, unlike cheap local user-group meetings. Others debate Informix's lack of marketing and momentum, and a former board member details why a 5-day conference effectively costs ~$9,000 and is hard to justify. No resolution is recorded — it ends as opinion and banter.
Auto-generated by DrWatson from the posts below — may be imperfect; read the full thread.
TBP wrote: > Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? > Can people get "half days"? > > Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 > Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros? > > Still, a bit late now huh :D It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past conferences. Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at large. In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C.
elanleblanc@yahoo.com wrote: > TBP wrote: >> Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? >> Can people get "half days"? >> >> Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 >> Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros? >> >> Still, a bit late now huh :D > > It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board > of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. > The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. > Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the > other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various > venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary > expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides > little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this > Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD > conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning > there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. > They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to > eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past > conferences. > > Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM > instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix > (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to > sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at > large. > > In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C. > You make the assertion indirectly that somehow the IIUG would have an ombudsman function or purpose, for users, to go to IBM for representation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Since the IIUG are not funded by the users and instead are funded by IBM it only makes sense who they really represent. That's just smart business.
Christine, Please stop saying lies or speaking about things you do not have a clue about. You have never been on the Board, you have been invited quite a few times, and you were not on the conference calls, nor in the exchange between the Board members. Thanks. On the subject of conferences, the bigger it is, the most expensive it is. When you have a users group lunch, it is basically free, when the WAIUG/SEIUG do a regional conference, price is about $100, but they have a huge crowd of volunteers to help them, then when you organise things like IOD or IDUG, you have more costs, because you can not rely only on volunteers... jgp > -----Original Message----- > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of elanleblanc@yahoo.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 00:25 > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The > Next Informix IDS Release... > > TBP wrote: > > Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? > > Can people get "half days"? > > > > Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 > > Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros? > > > > Still, a bit late now huh :D > > It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board > of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. > The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. > Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the > other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various > venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary > expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides > little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this > Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD > conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning > there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. > They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to > eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past > conferences. > > Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM > instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix > (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to > sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at > large. > > In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C. > > _______________________________________________ > Informix-list mailing list > Informix-list@iiug.org > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
Several key things here JGP. Why is it up to the IIUG to market Informix? That is what you are implying. Why is there no major application announcement regarding the use of Informix? Why is there no momentum with this product? Why isn't IBM putting some money into events and the product marketing? It appears that this next release is doomed to another misfire in the market from incompetence at every turn. Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > Christine, > > Please stop saying lies or speaking about things you do not have a clue > about. You have never been on the Board, you have been invited quite a few > times, and you were not on the conference calls, nor in the exchange between > the Board members. > > Thanks. > > On the subject of conferences, the bigger it is, the most expensive it is. > > When you have a users group lunch, it is basically free, when the > WAIUG/SEIUG do a regional conference, price is about $100, but they have a > huge crowd of volunteers to help them, then when you organise things like > IOD or IDUG, you have more costs, because you can not rely only on > volunteers... > > jgp > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of elanleblanc@yahoo.com >> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 00:25 >> To: informix-list@iiug.org >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The >> Next Informix IDS Release... >> >> TBP wrote: >>> Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? >>> Can people get "half days"? >>> >>> Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 >>> Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros? >>> >>> Still, a bit late now huh :D >> It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board >> of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. >> The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. >> Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the >> other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various >> venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary >> expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides >> little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this >> Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD >> conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning >> there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. >> They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to >> eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past >> conferences. >> >> Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM >> instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix >> (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to >> sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at >> large. >> >> In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Informix-list mailing list >> Informix-list@iiug.org >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list >
I think we should give this thread the correct title, not have it hiding behind something else. If I can add my few pennorth on the subjects of the cost of conferences etc. The challenge we all face is how to persuade the powers that be that we are making a good investment by paying for somebody to attend a conference. What are the benefits of the conference compared with the cost of attendance? The benefits are that you get to sit though lots of presentations which might be relevant to your job function. (I would defy anybody to convince me that all marketing presentations are that relevant to the audience but that's the cynic in me speaking). From my experience of attending many worldwide user conferences, local user group conferences, and Infobahns the %age of relevant presentations is at most 40%, and is often much less. Even the Chat With The Labs series of webcasts is becoming difficult to justify with so much time being spent on the marketing message and so little time on real technical issues. OK so you can take certification exams - big deal! What is that worth in reality. OK so you can listen to some of the experienced people talking about the product - that is fine for the speakers but if all they do is to regurgitate information then it is not that beneficial. OK so you can network with other users of the product. And what about the costs:- Generally a 5 day conference is now around $2000. The cost of travel and accommodation is roughly the same amount unless you are prepared to catch flights at ungodly hours and stay in ungodly hotels. There is also the question of the time away from work. Currently I am sold out to clients at a rate in excess of $1000 per day. So a five day conference is realistically going to cost in excess of $9000. I did make enquiries about going to the conference in Vienna, and the upcoming one in Anaheim. I was told that if I wanted to attend the conference I could do so at my own expense and by using my holidays. I can see my wife's reaction if I tell her I'm taking a week off to attend an IBM conference and it's going to cost $9,000. (Those of you that know my wife can guess at her reaction). My only alternative is to publicise the name of my company by doing a presentation. (Wake up David Williams!) But so far I have submitted a possible presentation to three conferences and had them turned down. After all I wanted to talk about the realities of how to survive disaster recovery and outline some of the reasons why we have failed to recover from disasters with the promptness that a customer should expect. (It really is surprising how many things can go wrong when you try to recover - I can spend many hours talking it if you would all like) As many of you will know I was a member of the Board of Directors of IIUG for about 7 years and was part of the board when we first started getting involved with subsidies from Informix to help with our administration costs. That was a very difficult decision and is still a very difficult decision. The challenge facing IIUG was to raise money to fund the services (including this Newsgroup, the Website, the board meetings etc). We had a choice between setting an economic membership fee for all members - including those from the third world where salaries are less than $50 per month - or finding somebody to subsidise the services. Nowadays we have been able to get subsidies from other organisations but then we had no choice - there was only one organisation who were prepared to back us, and then only for a limited time. The fact that the subsidy continued even when IBM bought Informix is testament to the work of the board of directors in creating a model for independent worldwide user groups. OK at times it might seem that the board is a little too IBM centric but that is really down to the membership of IIUG making their voice heard and indeendent thinkers being voted onto the board. As a result of the activities of the BOD there are now choices of conferences to attend. The IBM conference, the joint IIUG/IDUG conference, and numerous local conferences. There are Infobahns, Local User Group meetings, and even bigger forums like Washington Area Informix Users Group. The quality of the conference and the relevance of the conference to the attendees varies according to the type of organisation that runs it. If the conference is run by VARs it will be more relevant to people who work for VARs. If the conference is run by IBM then it will be more relevant to the people who work for IBM - and possibly to people who like hearing a sanitised message from the supplier. If the conference is run by a group of enthusiastic amateurs it won't have the same razzamatazz but it might be more worthwhile. We all have to make the choice and vote with our attendance. If we don't attend IBMs conferences they will still run them as some people within IBM have budgets to spend, but if we don't attend IDUG/IIUG or local user group meetings they will inevitably fold. I don't think the BOD should be telling us to attend the IBM conference - although I have seen no publicity for it other than from IIUG - but we should really consider if the user organised conferences are what we need, and if they aren't then let's make them so. But one message I would send to the IIUG BOD is that any conferences in Europe are expensive for the average attendee. Unless the csts are reduced the benefit will be outweighed by the costs of attendance. So, that was my two pennorth - feel free to shoot me down in flames if you will. Regards Malcolm
I guess most of this is due to pessimistic old fogeys that can't remember that Informix has never been capable of marketing its superior database. I never say IIUG is marketing the database (and it's actually not what we do). There is no major announcement in any other database world as well. At least we had a few, including very innovative solutions and a benchmark recently. You may not see momentum around the product 'cause you're lost on an island, I see quite a bit of it and sent facts about it recently. I am pretty sure the next version is far from being doomed! (I would not think I'd do that, but...) OTC said it as well. Stop looking at the half-empty glass, start thinking positively and life will look far better. jgp > -----Original Message----- > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 19:29 > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > TheNext Informix IDS Release... > > Several key things here JGP. > > Why is it up to the IIUG to market Informix? That is what you are > implying. > > Why is there no major application announcement regarding the use of > Informix? > > Why is there no momentum with this product? > > Why isn't IBM putting some money into events and the product marketing? > > It appears that this next release is doomed to another misfire in the > market > from incompetence at every turn. > > Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > > Christine, > > > > Please stop saying lies or speaking about things you do not have a clue > > about. You have never been on the Board, you have been invited quite a > few > > times, and you were not on the conference calls, nor in the exchange > between > > the Board members. > > > > Thanks. > > > > On the subject of conferences, the bigger it is, the most expensive it > is. > > > > When you have a users group lunch, it is basically free, when the > > WAIUG/SEIUG do a regional conference, price is about $100, but they have > a > > huge crowd of volunteers to help them, then when you organise things > like > > IOD or IDUG, you have more costs, because you can not rely only on > > volunteers... > > > > jgp > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of elanleblanc@yahoo.com > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 00:25 > >> To: informix-list@iiug.org > >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand > 2006,The > >> Next Informix IDS Release... > >> > >> TBP wrote: > >>> Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? > >>> Can people get "half days"? > >>> > >>> Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 > >>> Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 > Euros? > >>> > >>> Still, a bit late now huh :D > >> It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board > >> of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. > >> The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. > >> Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the > >> other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various > >> venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary > >> expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides > >> little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this > >> Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD > >> conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning > >> there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. > >> They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to > >> eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past > >> conferences. > >> > >> Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM > >> instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix > >> (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to > >> sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at > >> large. > >> > >> In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Informix-list mailing list > >> Informix-list@iiug.org > >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > Informix-list mailing list > Informix-list@iiug.org > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > I guess most of this is due to pessimistic old fogeys that can't remember > that Informix has never been capable of marketing its superior database. > Uh, _what_ marketing if any is being done _TODAY_ ? > I never say IIUG is marketing the database (and it's actually not what we > do). > Interesting observation... just what _does_ the IIUG do? :-/ It appears as if IBM is depending too much on the illustrious and sanctimonious IIUG to do something with Informix. A company that is serious about its products will promote them. > There is no major announcement in any other database world as well. At least > we had a few, including very innovative solutions and a benchmark recently. > Uh, one press release is not much if anything. There is no buzz, nothing. > You may not see momentum around the product 'cause you're lost on an island, > I see quite a bit of it and sent facts about it recently. > I see absolutely nothing but for the dribble here in c.d.i. If I didn't follow this newsgroup I wouldn't know anything about Informix. And I'm not lost on an island, Informix is the one that is lost not me. I did the smart thing and transitioned my skills away from Informix, a lost cause, and am quite happy. But it is a tragedy to see Informix suffer endless incompetence in the marketing department. It really would be great to see it have a chance in the market, but I can't see that happening. > I am pretty sure the next version is far from being doomed! > Right. What's the application everyone is hot-to-trot to put on Informix? Please tell me. Why would a developer use Informix? What's the hook? Tell me what I can do with Informix that I can't do with something else. There's no value proposition that I know of for Informix, nothing. > (I would not think I'd do that, but...) OTC said it as well. Stop looking at > the half-empty glass, start thinking positively and life will look far > better. > Yes I do look at the glass half full. My billing rate doubled once I left the Informix family and went on to other disciplines in IT that not only pay better, they are not a whipping boy for database religious wars or fodder for Oracle. Nothing to defend anymore, nothing to promote, it really doesn't matter, nobody cares about Informix anyway, it's done. Great technology in the bone yard of good intentions and lost causes. -DE- > jgp > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo >> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 19:29 >> To: informix-list@iiug.org >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, >> TheNext Informix IDS Release... >> >> Several key things here JGP. >> >> Why is it up to the IIUG to market Informix? That is what you are >> implying. >> >> Why is there no major application announcement regarding the use of >> Informix? >> >> Why is there no momentum with this product? >> >> Why isn't IBM putting some money into events and the product marketing? >> >> It appears that this next release is doomed to another misfire in the >> market >> from incompetence at every turn. >> >> Jean Georges Perrin wrote: >>> Christine, >>> >>> Please stop saying lies or speaking about things you do not have a clue >>> about. You have never been on the Board, you have been invited quite a >> few >>> times, and you were not on the conference calls, nor in the exchange >> between >>> the Board members. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On the subject of conferences, the bigger it is, the most expensive it >> is. >>> When you have a users group lunch, it is basically free, when the >>> WAIUG/SEIUG do a regional conference, price is about $100, but they have >> a >>> huge crowd of volunteers to help them, then when you organise things >> like >>> IOD or IDUG, you have more costs, because you can not rely only on >>> volunteers... >>> >>> jgp >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- >>>> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of elanleblanc@yahoo.com >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 00:25 >>>> To: informix-list@iiug.org >>>> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand >> 2006,The >>>> Next Informix IDS Release... >>>> >>>> TBP wrote: >>>>> Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend? >>>>> Can people get "half days"? >>>>> >>>>> Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500 >>>>> Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 >> Euros? >>>>> Still, a bit late now huh :D >>>> It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board >>>> of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community. >>>> The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1. >>>> Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the >>>> other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various >>>> venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary >>>> expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides >>>> little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this >>>> Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD >>>> conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning >>>> there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again. >>>> They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to >>>> eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past >>>> conferences. >>>> >>>> Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM >>>> instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix >>>> (not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to >>>> sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at >>>> large. >>>> >>>> In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Informix-list mailing list >>>> Informix-list@iiug.org >>>> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list >> _______________________________________________ >> Informix-list mailing list >> Informix-list@iiug.org >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list >
"malcolm weallans" <malcolm.iiug@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:mailman.22.1159900823.29455.informix-list@iiug.org... >> Currently I am sold out to clients at a rate in excess of $1000 per day. Bloody Hell! P T Barnum was right after all! >> I can see my wife's reaction if I tell her I'm taking a week off to >> attend an IBM conference ... ... and have you seen the price of bunting these days? >> After all I wanted to talk about the realities of how to survive disaster recovery and outline some of the reasons why we have failed to recover from disasters with the promptness that a customer should expect. I think that *would* make an interesting subject for a presentation. >> We had a choice between setting an economic membership fee for all >> members - including those from the third world where salaries are less than $50 per month Basingtoke?