RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, TheNextInformix IDS Release...
No technical problem here — this is an off-topic flame/opinion thread from October 2006 arguing about Informix's future under IBM, conference pricing and attendance, and whether the product is 'dead'. Double Echo argues Informix lacks marketing, developer base and applications (comparing it to Thinking Machines); Jean Georges Perrin, Martin Fuerderer and Mark Scranton push back, call for IIUG volunteers and point to upcoming IDS features. The only technical nugget is Scranton's note that IDS 9.4's buffer pool management combined LRU (victim selection) with DB2-style FIFO for hot pages. No resolution is recorded.
Auto-generated by DrWatson from the posts below — may be imperfect; read the full thread.
And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the potential ! don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force. -----Original Message----- From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:58 AM To: informix-list@iiug.org Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, TheNextInformix IDS Release... Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with > artificial intelligence? > I had actually been lulled into thinking that you were capable of thinking outside the Informix box. But I see that I am indeed wrong. On this I am sure. Thinking Machines ( the company ) was carved up and split off between Sun and Oracle. God only knows what they did with the parts, but the point, obviously lost on you, was that this was great technology that simply did not make it in its present form. Informix, great technology, but for whatever reason will not make it--at least in its present form. The Connection Machines developed by Thinking Machines where way ahead of their time, just like Informix. DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better buffer pool management. But IBM knows they can get most of their sales from 20% of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats ass about marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will simply continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea. > The path of your thinking is really strange to me. > It's early for you. When you get 5-10 years away from actually using Informix it will become easier for you. This will soon be possible when Informix slides off into the abyss. > Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. This is > how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can surely do > better than that! > I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there is a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake up and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised. In my misguided zeal, I somehow think that somebody will resurrect this product and really make it fly. But deep down inside I know it's a lost cause. Probably the same kind of problem people have with quitting smoking, it's difficult. > Or go comp.lang.prolog... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 07:45 >> To: informix-list@iiug.org >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, >> TheNext Informix IDS Release... >> >> The big question is, what does the conference really buy you in the >> market? >> >> Just because Walmart and a few other companies are keeping the Informix >> lights >> on doesn't mean the product has a real future. If you can't build a >> developer >> base, all you have is a database engine. Look at all the great technology >> projects over the years that were the "superior" choice, but nobody cared. >> Unless Informix differentiates itself in the market with some kind of >> application >> that works with the database, it's a big nothing. Just nothing. >> >> Try this one in google: Thinking Machines . That one is really amazing. >> All >> gone now, great technology, with a great future... bwahahahaaaaaaa! 8-) >> >> >> Jean Georges Perrin wrote: >>> Malcolm, first understand I have a lot of respect with what you have >> been >>> doing for the Informix community. >>> >>> Having said that, I fully disagree with you on many points. >>> >>> Informix is not in "apathy mode". It sure is not as "brilliant" as in >> early >>> 1997 when Informix corp was cumulating about a quarter of Oracle's >> revenue. >>> But some did errors and things have changed. However, apathy or anemic >> are >>> certainly NOT how I'd describe the Informix world today! Are you related >> to >>> DE? >>> >>> The conference had poor attendance: it was the first ever in Europe. >> Even >>> IFMX did not do one in the glorious (new) era. >>> >>> Price is high: I will not disclose numbers (which I do not have ;-) ) >> but >>> IDUG is *not* making a lot of money on European events. IIUG (blame us >> if >>> you will) is not doing ANY money. >>> >>> Volunteers: the conference in Vienna, from the IIUG standpoint, is >> manned by >>> volunteers, this include Gary & Paul. If we had 10 times these guys, >> we'd >>> probably be able to make a cheap conference in my garage... (and along >> side >>> with my "cave", we could do two tracks, we would even be able to set up >> a >>> hands on lab on my systems...). >>> >>> And please don't find the excuse of "no time"... I am on a contract, so >> even >>> if I can access those conferences at "a preferred rate", it means no >> income >>> during the week. And going to 3 or 4 conferences a year does not bring >> you >>> knowledge: one or two yes, no more knowledge because you double the time >>> spent in the same type of conference. And I am not an Informix >> consultant, >>> so I am not even chasing customers there. >>> >>> Please all, stop moaning and complaining, IIUG is looking for >> volunteers... >>> (and it's not all directed at Malcolm). >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- >>>> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of malcolm weallans >>>> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 20:54 >>>> To: 'Jean Georges Perrin'; 'Davorin Kremenjas'; informix-list@iiug.org >>>> Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, >> The >>>> Next Informix IDS Release... >>>> >>>> Jean Georges, I don't think it is a question of setting an index and >>>> pricing >>>> according to where the people come from. That would generate a big >> market >>>> in paper companies ostensibly based in the poorest country of the >> world. >>>> But this is exactly the same problem that we had in trying to fix a >>>> membership fee for IIUG - oh so many years ago. >>>> >>>> What we really need to consider - as a newsgroup and as IIUG - is that >> we >>>> have a diverse audience. Some may be prepared to pay to attend >>>> conferences >>>> - others might find financing such a venture difficult. Some might >> have >>>> ample time to attend conferences. Some are managing a number of IDS >>>> servers >>>> single
Sebastian, Norma J. wrote: > And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could > leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the > potential ! > > don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing > informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have > 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called > sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force. > > I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive. As to SQLServer2005, I think before you get too lathered up about it you will find that working on Windows Server is painful after working on Linux or UNIX. It is a much improved product over its predecessors, but still only runs on Windows. Of course your family doesn't really care, the billable for SQLServer is as good if not better than Informix anyway, so what does it matter. All the top tier products are driven by applications, and today, most of IT is too young to know the difference. Most kids today don't really dig into the internals enough to know anything about which product is better or worse. They just tell management to buy faster hardware and suffer, as long as it's got a GUI that works in Windows XP. Just keep that app running, even with all it's twisted SQL, and make sure the backups are working. Oracle? Oh yeah, that's on the other machine, and they have Oracle people for that app. It's all about the application.
DE wrote: > I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of > code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the > seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a > career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my > family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that > if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive. As you will never bet on informix again, you have bet on different horses? And that's why you have to spend so much energy in this forum (news group) to make sure that Informix will never get near winning again, because that would mean you could loose your current bets? If Informix would be as dead as you pronounce it, why would you then again and again have to state the obvious with so much effort? In your place I wouldn't even bother anymore. The effort that you put in here somehow contradicts what you seem so convinced of. With what idea have you then moved on? I guess your last sentence above doesn't really make a lot of sense. You wanted to say "I hadn't moved on with ..."? Sometimes a single letter makes quite a difference ... ;) Cheers, Martin --
Martin Fuerderer wrote: > DE wrote: >> I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of >> code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the >> seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a >> career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my >> family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that >> if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive. > > As you will never bet on informix again, you have bet on different horses? > Other products continue to feed my family, Informix does not. I barely note it on my resume anymore. > And that's why you have to spend so much energy in this forum (news > group) to make sure that Informix will never get near winning > again, because that would mean you could loose your current bets? > I hope it does succeed, but I'm convinced it will not. It is tragic. There seems to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Informix will never be anything more than just a "legacy" product, as only a handful of customers are using it. But I don't think I spend that much energy in this newsgroup, it only looks that way because most of the people here that post anything, don't go beyond one or two sentences. > If Informix would be as dead as you pronounce it, why would you then > again and again have to state the obvious with so much effort? It is no effort to continue living with a bad habit. And as long as the bandwidth is unlimited, I can say whatever I want. Besides, if you see the denial of reality here, it is astonishing. It's difficult not to speak up. > In your place I wouldn't even bother anymore. The effort that you put > in here somehow contradicts what you seem so convinced of. > I couldn't agree more. It is a huge contradiction, a conflict in my life. :-) > With what idea have you then moved on? > I guess your last sentence above doesn't really make a lot of sense. > You wanted to say "I hadn't moved on with ..."? > Sometimes a single letter makes quite a difference ... ;) > > Cheers, > Martin > -- > You are so correct. As I stated, it's like quitting smoking. You want to stop but it's very very difficult. You know it's bad for you, it has no redeeming quality and yet you smoke anyway. Informix is a bad habit for me, I don't get any benefits out of it, yet I hope against hope that somebody with some competence inside IBM will do the right thing and market this product. But I know it's a lost cause.
I remember back in the 80's...i bought the book about the Connection Machine architecture. Yes - it was way ahead of it's time. And yes (I hate to admit), I agree with DE - the technology was lost amongst the technologists...it had nothing to do with how good it was. Much like us. Some points: 1. it's not a technology battle - never has been. Has very little to do with the problem right now. If it were a technology battle, we'd all be driving Subaru's or Toyota's, not GM cars. (I come from a GM family, so I can say that without regret). 2. Don't wait on IBM with respect to Informix. Stay focused on what you can do to continue it's life. I believe we have quite a few years ahead of Informix work - not so much new clients, but within a loyal installed base. Sad, but true. 3. IDS 10.5 will bring some great features - many of you will hear about them next week at conference. Pat folks like John, Johnathon and Madison on the back for staying the course. 4. I have been very busy - almost 100% of the time - with Informix clients since joining Xtivia. And I'm not the only one - others on the staff as well. 5. One of the best contributions the tech crowds can make is to publish articles about how the Informix product helps your site, is easy to...whatever. Many will say "I don't have time..." - apparently a few of us have "enough time" to post here endlessly. Take that time and energy and route it into an article or paper from a technical point-of-view. Helps to start a buzz. (And please - no more articles that say "I was writing 4GL in 1983...."). Volunteer to help the IIUG as JGP has stated. It's time for some new blood there. I certainly would hope we have a changing of the guard to get some new inputs and fresh perspectives. I see JGP as a candidate for the next Prez, but that's just me. He still has the enthusiasm and energy needed there - and he is connected to the client base in numerous ways. This is important. Thanks - Mark Scranton Informix 1995-2006 Sebastian, Norma J. wrote: > And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could > leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the > potential ! > > don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing > informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have > 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called > sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org > [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:58 AM > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > TheNextInformix IDS Release... > > Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > > I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with > > artificial intelligence? > > > > I had actually been lulled into thinking that you were capable of > thinking outside the Informix box. But I see that I am indeed wrong. > On this I am sure. > > Thinking Machines ( the company ) was carved up and split off between > Sun and Oracle. God only knows what they did with the parts, but the > point, obviously lost on you, was that this was great technology that > simply did not make it in its present form. > > > Informix, great technology, but for whatever reason will not make it--at > least in its present form. The Connection Machines developed by > Thinking Machines where way ahead of their time, just like Informix. > > DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some > degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better > buffer pool management. But IBM knows they can get most of their sales > from 20% of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats > ass about marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will > simply continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea. > > > > The path of your thinking is really strange to me. > > > It's early for you. When you get 5-10 years away from actually using > Informix it will become easier for you. This will soon be possible when > Informix slides off into the abyss. > > > Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. > This is > > how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can > surely do > > better than that! > > > > I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for > apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there > is a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake > up and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised. In my > misguided zeal, I somehow think that somebody will resurrect this > product and really make it fly. But deep down inside I know it's a lost > cause. Probably the same kind of problem people have with quitting > smoking, it's difficult. > > > > > > > > Or go comp.lang.prolog... > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 07:45 > >> To: informix-list@iiug.org > >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > >> TheNext Informix IDS Release... > >> > >> The big question is, what does the conference really buy you in the > >> market? > >> > >> Just because Walmart and a few other companies are keeping the > Informix > >> lights > >> on doesn't mean the product has a real future. If you can't build a > >> developer > >> base, all you have is a database engine. Look at all the great > technology > >> projects over the years that were the "superior" choice, but nobody > cared. > >> Unless Informix differentiates itself in the market with some kind of > >> application > >> that works with the database, it's a big nothing. Just nothing. > >> > >> Try this one in google: Thinking Machines . That one is really > amazing. > >> All > >> gone now, great technology, with a great future... bwahahahaaaaaaa! > 8-) > >> > >> > >> Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > >>> Malcolm, first understand I have a lot of respect with what you have > >> been > >>> doing for the Informix community. > >>> > >>> Having said that, I fully disagree with you on many points. > >>> > >>> Informix is not in "apathy mode". It sure is not as "brilliant" as > in > >> early > >>> 1997 when Informix corp was cumulating about a quarter of Oracle's > >> revenue. > >>> But some did errors and things have changed. However, apathy or > anemic > >> are > >>> certainly NOT how I'd describe the Informix world today! Are you > related > >> to > >>> DE? > >>> > >>> The conference had poor attendance: it was the first ever in Europe. > >> Even > >>> IFMX did not do one in the glorious (new) era. > >>> > >>> Price is high: I will not disclose numbers (which I do not have ;-) > ) > >> but@
And yes...on the "better buffer pool mgmt" - in 9.4 we built a hybrid of the approach that IDS has used (LRUS) to manage the potential victims, and DB2 has used (FIFO) to manage the hot pages. Pages can migrate from "either side" depending on popularity. There were benefits to both, so we combined them. Mark > about them next week at conference. Pat folks like John, Johnathon and > Madison on the back for staying the course. > > 4. I have been very busy - almost 100% of the time - with Informix > clients since joining Xtivia. And I'm not the only one - others on the > staff as well. > > 5. One of the best contributions the tech crowds can make is to publish > articles about how the Informix product helps your site, is easy > to...whatever. Many will say "I don't have time..." - apparently a few > of us have "enough time" to post here endlessly. Take that time and > energy and route it into an article or paper from a technical > point-of-view. Helps to start a buzz. (And please - no more articles > that say "I was writing 4GL in 1983...."). > > Volunteer to help the IIUG as JGP has stated. It's time for some new > blood there. I certainly would hope we have a changing of the guard to > get some new inputs and fresh perspectives. I see JGP as a candidate > for the next Prez, but that's just me. He still has the enthusiasm and > energy needed there - and he is connected to the client base in > numerous ways. This is important. > > Thanks - > Mark Scranton > Informix 1995-2006 > > > > Sebastian, Norma J. wrote: > > And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could > > leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the > > potential ! > > > > don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing > > informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have > > 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called > > sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org > > [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:58 AM > > To: informix-list@iiug.org > > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > > TheNextInformix IDS Release... > > > > Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > > > I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with > > > artificial intelligence? > > > > > > > I had actually been lulled into thinking that you were capable of > > thinking outside the Informix box. But I see that I am indeed wrong. > > On this I am sure. > > > > Thinking Machines ( the company ) was carved up and split off between > > Sun and Oracle. God only knows what they did with the parts, but the > > point, obviously lost on you, was that this was great technology that > > simply did not make it in its present form. > > > > > > Informix, great technology, but for whatever reason will not make it--at > > least in its present form. The Connection Machines developed by > > Thinking Machines where way ahead of their time, just like Informix. > > > > DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some > > degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better > > buffer pool management. But IBM knows they can get most of their sales > > from 20% of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats > > ass about marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will > > simply continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea. > > > > > > > The path of your thinking is really strange to me. > > > > > It's early for you. When you get 5-10 years away from actually using > > Informix it will become easier for you. This will soon be possible when > > Informix slides off into the abyss. > > > > > Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. > > This is > > > how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can > > surely do > > > better than that! > > > > > > > I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for > > apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there > > is a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake > > up and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised. In my > > misguided zeal, I somehow think that somebody will resurrect this > > product and really make it fly. But deep down inside I know it's a lost > > cause. Probably the same kind of problem people have with quitting > > smoking, it's difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or go comp.lang.prolog... > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > > >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 07:45 > > >> To: informix-list@iiug.org > > >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > > >> TheNext Informix IDS Release... > > >> > > >> The big question is, what does the conference really buy you in the > > >> market? > > >> > > >> Just because Walmart and a few other companies are keeping the > > Informix > > >> lights > > >> on doesn't mean the product has a real future. If you can't build a > > >> developer > > >> base, all you have is a database engine. Look at all the great > > technology > > >> projects over the years that were the "superior" choice, but nobody > > cared. > > >> Unless Informix differentiates itself in the market with some kind of > > >> application > > >> that works with the database, it's a big nothing. Just nothing. > > >> > > >> Try this one in google: Thinking Machines . That one is really > > amazing. > > >> All > > >> gone now, great technology, with a great future... bwahahahaaaaaaa! > > 8-) > > >> > > >> > > >> Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > > >>> Malcolm, first understand I have a lot of respect with what you have > > >> been > > >>> doing for the Informix community. > > >>> > > >>> Having said that, I fully disagree with you on many points. > > >>> > > >>> Informix is not in "apathy mode". It sure is not as "brilliant" as > > in > > >> early > > >>> 1997 when Informix corp was cumulating about a quarter of Oracle's > > >> revenue. > > >>> But some did errors and things have changed. However, apathy or > > anemic > > >> are > > >>> certainly NOT how I'd describe the Informix world today! Are you > > related > > >> to > > >>> DE? > > >>> > > >>> The conference had poor attendance: it was the first ever in Europe. > > >> Even > > >>> IFMX did not do one in the glorious (new) era. > > >>> > > >>> Price is high: I will not disclose numbers (which I do not have ;-) > > ) > > >> but > > >>> IDUG is *not* making a lot of money on European events. IIUG (blame > > us > > >> if > > >>> you will) is not doing ANY money. > > >>> > > >>> Volunteers: the conference in Vienna, from the IIUG standpoint, i
Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I plan to run again and with your support, be reelected. But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to connect my apps to it... Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into wilderness... > -----Original Message----- > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of mark.scranton@gmail.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 19:27 > To: informix-list@iiug.org > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand > 2006,TheNextInformix IDS Release... > > I remember back in the 80's...i bought the book about the Connection > Machine architecture. Yes - it was way ahead of it's time. And yes (I > hate to admit), I agree with DE - the technology was lost amongst the > technologists...it had nothing to do with how good it was. Much like > us. > > Some points: > > 1. it's not a technology battle - never has been. Has very little to do > with the problem right now. If it were a technology battle, we'd all be > driving Subaru's or Toyota's, not GM cars. (I come from a GM family, so > I can say that without regret). > > 2. Don't wait on IBM with respect to Informix. Stay focused on what you > can do to continue it's life. I believe we have quite a few years ahead > of Informix work - not so much new clients, but within a loyal > installed base. Sad, but true. > > 3. IDS 10.5 will bring some great features - many of you will hear > about them next week at conference. Pat folks like John, Johnathon and > Madison on the back for staying the course. > > 4. I have been very busy - almost 100% of the time - with Informix > clients since joining Xtivia. And I'm not the only one - others on the > staff as well. > > 5. One of the best contributions the tech crowds can make is to publish > articles about how the Informix product helps your site, is easy > to...whatever. Many will say "I don't have time..." - apparently a few > of us have "enough time" to post here endlessly. Take that time and > energy and route it into an article or paper from a technical > point-of-view. Helps to start a buzz. (And please - no more articles > that say "I was writing 4GL in 1983...."). > > Volunteer to help the IIUG as JGP has stated. It's time for some new > blood there. I certainly would hope we have a changing of the guard to > get some new inputs and fresh perspectives. I see JGP as a candidate > for the next Prez, but that's just me. He still has the enthusiasm and > energy needed there - and he is connected to the client base in > numerous ways. This is important. > > Thanks - > Mark Scranton > Informix 1995-2006 > > > > Sebastian, Norma J. wrote: > > And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could > > leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the > > potential ! > > > > don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing > > informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have > > 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called > > sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org > > [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:58 AM > > To: informix-list@iiug.org > > Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > > TheNextInformix IDS Release... > > > > Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > > > I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with > > > artificial intelligence? > > > > > > > I had actually been lulled into thinking that you were capable of > > thinking outside the Informix box. But I see that I am indeed wrong. > > On this I am sure. > > > > Thinking Machines ( the company ) was carved up and split off between > > Sun and Oracle. God only knows what they did with the parts, but the > > point, obviously lost on you, was that this was great technology that > > simply did not make it in its present form. > > > > > > Informix, great technology, but for whatever reason will not make it--at > > least in its present form. The Connection Machines developed by > > Thinking Machines where way ahead of their time, just like Informix. > > > > DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some > > degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better > > buffer pool management. But IBM knows they can get most of their sales > > from 20% of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats > > ass about marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will > > simply continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea. > > > > > > > The path of your thinking is really strange to me. > > > > > It's early for you. When you get 5-10 years away from actually using > > Informix it will become easier for you. This will soon be possible when > > Informix slides off into the abyss. > > > > > Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. > > This is > > > how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can > > surely do > > > better than that! > > > > > > > I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for > > apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there > > is a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake > > up and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised. In my > > misguided zeal, I somehow think that somebody will resurrect this > > product and really make it fly. But deep down inside I know it's a lost > > cause. Probably the same kind of problem people have with quitting > > smoking, it's difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or go comp.lang.prolog... > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list- > > >> bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo > > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 07:45 > > >> To: informix-list@iiug.org > > >> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, > > >> TheNext Informix IDS Release... > > >> > > >> The big question is, what does the conference really buy you in the > > >> market? > > >> > > >> Just because Walmart and a few other companies are keeping the > > Informix > > >> lights > > >> on doesn't mean the product has a real future. If you can't build a > > >> developer > > >> base, all you have is a database engine. Look at all the great > > technology > > >> projects over the years that were the "superior" choice, but nobody > > cared. > > >> Unless Informix differentiates
Jean Georges Perrin wrote: > Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a > presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been > fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I > plan to run again and with your support, be reelected. > > But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by > now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for > "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to > connect my apps to it... > > Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into > wilderness... > Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get "fresh blood". You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is no buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious reason to use and develop applications with that database engine. Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer that choice.
>> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a >> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been >> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I >> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.>> >> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by >> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for >> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to >> connect my apps to it... >> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into >> wilderness... > Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates > some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get > "fresh blood". Dude! We *KNOW* this is how you feel. Horse-Dead-Beaten! > You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that > Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is > no buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the > reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't > hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious > reason to use and develop applications with that database engine. Does it ever occur to you, even for one second, that your experience is an ancedote - not data. Because Informix has a new release coming out. We are an Informix user (which means we are still USING Informix which you continue to repeat you are *NOT*) and we have NO PROBLEM finding Informix support OR applications that support (or even recommend) Informix. Sure as hell looks like life to me. Maybe it doesn't have the numbers of SQL Server 2005 or hOracle, but guess what? Lots and lots and lots of products that aren't #1, #2, or even #3, in their niche survive just fine. M$-Word has like 95% of the word processing market? Does that mean you can't find another word processor to buy? Nope, there are least a dozen of them. Probably will continue to be dozens of them. > Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers > build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to > develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer > that choice. I know developers writing serious apps that work with Informix - because the performance is better, the price is lower, and the administration easier. I guess I should forward all your e-mail to them so they will realize how foolish they are. Will Informix be a historical foot note someday? Of course; just like IPX, LAT, SNA, LISP, CP/M, and myriads of others. So take comfort that, yes, you will be right someday.
adam@morrison-ind.com wrote: >>> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a >>> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it >>> would've been >>> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big >>> deal. I >>> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.>> >>> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know >>> that by >>> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for >>> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to >>> connect my apps to it... >>> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I >>> fall into >>> wilderness... >> Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates >> some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get >> "fresh blood". > > Dude! We *KNOW* this is how you feel. Horse-Dead-Beaten! > It's not about how I "feel", it's about reality friend. >> You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that >> Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is no >> buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the >> reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't >> hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious >> reason to use and develop applications with that database engine. > > Does it ever occur to you, even for one second, that your experience is > an ancedote - not data. I would love for you to show me the money. > Because Informix has a new release coming > out. We are an Informix user (which means we are still USING Informix > which you continue to repeat you are *NOT*) and we have NO PROBLEM > finding Informix support OR applications that support (or even > recommend) Informix. Sure as hell looks like life to me. Maybe it > doesn't have the numbers of SQL Server 2005 or hOracle, but guess > what? Lots and lots and lots of products that aren't #1, #2, or even > #3, in their niche survive just fine. M$-Word has like 95% of the word > processing market? Does that mean you can't find another word processor > to buy? Nope, there are least a dozen of them. Probably will continue > to be dozens of them. > OK. So. Did it ever occur to you how fucking nothing the developer program(s) are for Informix people? It's pathetic. Go seek another product that has developers and you'll see product moving and selling. You understand why, the company has a developer program that not only attracted the developer, they made that conscious, sub-millisecond decision to suddenly pay attention to the product, download it, install it, and then get lathered up enough to develop an application with it. This is why I speak what I speak and continue to drive home the fact of how fucking futile it is to release a product without a fucking strategy for its fucking success. It's a big fucking nothing right now. It ain't fucking enough to power a fucking flashlight. Let me illustrate my point, going over-the-fucking-top as usual: Informix Marketing Commercial: "The Reality Of No Developer Program" <fade in> Our scene opens in the suburban jungle of <pick-your-urbanity> where Mr Smith is going through his morning routine to head to work, and suddenly, he gets a knock at the door. Knock Knock Knock! Mr. Smith: Who's there? Delivery Man: "Delivery service... We're here to drop off your engine.". Mr. Smith: What engine? Delivery Man: "From Mercedes... it's some kind of 12-cylinder monster...we got it on a pallet...need your signature to accept it...". Mr. Smith: Coming! <walks to door and opens front door> Delivery Man: "It's right here... <hands Mr Smith the delivery receipt> Mr. Smith: I see... you're delivering me an engine..... what am I supposed to do with it exactly? Delivery Man: "Hell if I know, I just deliver product I... have no idea or uh, well, you know, I don't know anything about it. Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know either... I'm sorry... I can't accept it... <walks back, closes door> <delivery man stands there with dick in hand> <fade to black> <titles The End /> >> Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers >> build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to >> develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer >> that choice. > > I know developers writing serious apps that work with Informix - because > the performance is better, the price is lower, and the administration > easier. I guess I should forward all your e-mail to them so they will > realize how foolish they are. > Dude I'm on _your_ team, not the enemy. I can't help but notice how well Oracle and Microsoft are doing, and how they value their developers. I must somehow be missing the incredible momentum the Informix Developer program is doing, I don't see the ads and I don't hear anything in the trades. So maybe you can show me. > Will Informix be a historical foot note someday? Of course; just like > IPX, LAT, SNA, LISP, CP/M, and myriads of others. So take comfort that, > yes, you will be right someday. > Sooner than later. :-)
dude... It's like I suggested many, many months ago to you - if you have LOTS of ideas for changing things, join IBM and try to make a change. Your ramblings and "the longer it gets the filthier it is" approach only alienates folks and makes people wonder about "these folks that say they're dedicated to Informix." If you wanna be "on this team", statements like "..it can't even power a flashlight" are just, well, ridiculous. WHY do you keep beating the "IBM dead horse"? Do you really think that is going to change? Are you kidding - of course not. I was there. We tried to get IBM to offer a "free IDS" (for the developer community), but this idea was beaten down over the potential loss of a few million $$$ and politics - with no regard to the fact that DB2 has a free offereing of course. So why do you repeat yourself (repeat yourself (repeat yourself)) and have a cow over what IBM is not doing? Wasted energy as I see it. But there IS a loyal group of "us" that are continuing to work on the product - 100% of the time - and are doing creative things like: 1) joining the beta program for 10.5 to find out more about the new features coming out 2) like offering papers and presentations at conferences to help further educate the community that still needs to know the technical aspects of the product since they still use it in house.... 3) writing tech articles for trade rags to give visibility to the product, and it's strengths. 4) find employment with a company that has a great handle on alot of the Informix consulting opportunities out there. 5) Look up every nook and cranny (this one should be fun for OTC to respond to I'm sure!) for opportunities for spreading the product and it's presence - when onsite, traveling, and speaking to clients. Am I disappointed by what HAS happened? Well of course. I was going to retire at Informix, and enjoy the income from the stock. What happened is TRAGIC. But statements and rantings like yours does NOTHING to further the cause. Get involved with some of the stuff I detailed above. Run for the IIUG board. Write some papers. Take 1/3 of the time spent on here...and use it to make a contribution. Mark Scranton Informix 1995-2006 Double Echo wrote: > adam@morrison-ind.com wrote: > >>> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a > >>> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it > >>> would've been > >>> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big > >>> deal. I > >>> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.>> > >>> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know > >>> that by > >>> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for > >>> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to > >>> connect my apps to it... > >>> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I > >>> fall into > >>> wilderness... > >> Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates > >> some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get > >> "fresh blood". > > > > Dude! We *KNOW* this is how you feel. Horse-Dead-Beaten! > > > > > It's not about how I "feel", it's about reality friend. > > > > >> You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that > >> Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is no > >> buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the > >> reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't > >> hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious > >> reason to use and develop applications with that database engine. > > > > Does it ever occur to you, even for one second, that your experience is > > an ancedote - not data. > > > I would love for you to show me the money. > > > > Because Informix has a new release coming > > out. We are an Informix user (which means we are still USING Informix > > which you continue to repeat you are *NOT*) and we have NO PROBLEM > > finding Informix support OR applications that support (or even > > recommend) Informix. Sure as hell looks like life to me. Maybe it > > doesn't have the numbers of SQL Server 2005 or hOracle, but guess > > what? Lots and lots and lots of products that aren't #1, #2, or even > > #3, in their niche survive just fine. M$-Word has like 95% of the word > > processing market? Does that mean you can't find another word processor > > to buy? Nope, there are least a dozen of them. Probably will continue > > to be dozens of them. > > > > OK. So. Did it ever occur to you how fucking nothing the developer program(s) are for Informix people? It's pathetic. Go seek another product that has developers and you'll see product moving and selling. You understand why, the company has a developer program that not only attracted the developer, they made that conscious, sub-millisecond decision to suddenly pay attention to the product, download it, install it, and then get lathered up enough to develop an application with it. > > This is why I speak what I speak and continue to drive home the fact of how fucking futile it is to release a product without a fucking strategy for its fucking success. It's a big fucking nothing right now. It ain't fucking enough to power a fucking flashlight. > > Let me illustrate my point, going over-the-fucking-top as usual: > > Informix Marketing Commercial: "The Reality Of No Developer Program" > > <fade in> > > Our scene opens in the suburban jungle of <pick-your-urbanity> where Mr Smith is going through his morning routine to head to work, and suddenly, he gets a knock at the door. > > Knock Knock Knock! > > Mr. Smith: Who's there? > > Delivery Man: "Delivery service... We're here to drop off your engine.". > > Mr. Smith: What engine? > > Delivery Man: "From Mercedes... it's some kind of 12-cylinder monster...we got it on a pallet...need your signature to accept it...". > > Mr. Smith: Coming! <walks to door and opens front door> > > Delivery Man: "It's right here... <hands Mr Smith the delivery receipt> > > Mr. Smith: I see... you're delivering me an engine..... what am I supposed to do with it exactly? > > Delivery Man: "Hell if I know, I just deliver product I... have no idea or uh, well, you know, I don't know anything about it. > > Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know either... I'm sorry... I can't accept it... > > <walks back, closes door> > > <delivery man stands there with dick in hand> > > <fade to black> > > <titles The End /> > > > >> Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers > >> build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to > >> develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer > >> that choice. > > > > I know developers writing serious apps that work with Informix - because > > the performance is better, the price is lower, and the administration > > easier. I guess I should