Re: Oracle 10G

Daniel Morgan wrote: > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > >> There is a substantial difference in that an IT practitioner is unlikely >> to kill someone in the day to day job through a lack of theoretical >> knowledge. > > Perhaps you would like to explain that to all of the people writing > database software that control the dispensing of prescription drugs, > application of toxins, medical licensing, national security, and the > stuff that keeps those planes Boeing and Airbus make in the air. > >>>And the number of failed >>>projects and the number of wasted dollars are testament enough to that >>>being fact. >> >> Well, a lot of those dollars (in my experience) get wasted by a surfeit >> of academic education without a grasp of reality. Primarily because >> idiots have been taught the theory and go out and apply that theory in >> places where there are differences to the ideal world. > > You are the one throwing around the word 'theory'. I didn't use it once. > I'd suggest you take a look at where along the road you came to the > totally eroneous conclusion that that is what is taught. Because it sure > didn't come from me. Nor does it reflect more than 2% of what is taught. You can't teach experience, Daniel. You can't in a classroom environment convey all the nuances of real life. >>>Or a medical school, or a law school, or an engineering school, etc. >> >> Bollocks to that. When there are legal and regulatory issues, or when >> lives are at stake, you can use that argument. > > If you can't answer this question my spelling it out probably won't > help. Databases put lives at risk each and every day. And not in trivial > numbers or in trivial ways. Yes, but the vast majority of them are used to run (as per one of your examples) Siebel or Oracle Financials, or other non-life-threatening applications. In fact, I've consulted to over 100 companies (probably closer to 200, I really have lost count) and never been involved in a project where lives were at risk. When I say consulted, I mean I've done something useful, not just popped around for a chat. > If I was to extend your reasoning, >> then I'd have to say that in order to sweep streets you need a degree in >> "sanitation engineering" or a degree in optics and technology to run a >> photocopier. Or a degree in communications to run a switchboard. > > Good attempt at diversion but it fails. Gee thanks! The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind. > 1. You don't need a degree to sweep the streets but you probably do to > write the EPA reports and meet legal requirements. If I might quote myself: "Bollocks to that. When there are legal and regulatory issues, or when lives are at stake, you can use that argument." Did you actually read my post or did you just get your dander up because I said something you didn't like about universities? > 2. You don't need a degree to run a photocopier. But you sure need one > to design and build one. Design maybe, not build. > 3. You don't need a degree to run a switchboard but you sure need one to > design and build one. You do? I've known some really good telecoms engineers who might argue with you over that one. > 4. And you don't need a degree to use a database but you sure need one > to design and build one. Oh, bullshit. In terms of the use of a database, building a good database requires understanding the business and a degree of ability. You can't possibly teach me from the hallowed halls of Washington U how a parts manufacturer would want to use his database. And you really don't need a degree to learn about normalising a database. In terms of the engineering of database technology (actually coding the IDS server), you need to be aware of the art but some of the engineers I know of who cut the code aren't degreed either. Most (but not all) of the designers are, because that's the most effective way of becoming aware of the art. But even if they all were, it's entirely specious, because you are not training people to do that, are you? > Sounds to me like you don't have a degree and are fearful that my > students, and those like them, are going to turn you from a developer to > a consumer just like your examples. Sounds to me like you're worried that your attendees might find out that attending your class isn't necessarily worth anything. I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day with a raw academic, mate. In fact, I have, and I'll do it again. >> I'm not knocking academics, I've known many fascinating and impressive >> people who are in the parallel universe, but by the same token if I had >> the choice of using someone who just had a hatful of degrees or someone >> who had some scars and had done things, I know who'd get my vote every >> time. > > There was a time when people without degrees could do the job. They are > a dying breed just like those of my generation that learned on Fortran > and punchcards ... or breadboards. There were no IT degrees when we got > our start. And...? > But my guess is that you won't be in IT 10-15 years from now when you > are asked by management to compete against 30-40 year olds with degrees. > This industry was the wild west in its infancy but it is maturing. And > in the current marketplace more and more job adds are demanding a > degree. It will become the rule rather than the exception in the not > too distant future. No need to wait, mate. I have to compete with people who are younger than me and have degrees right now. Every job I've ever applied for that absolutely required a degree would take me purely because of my experience. > There is more going on in Bangalore than just lower wages. The people > there are all degreed: And it shows. Yes, it shows: every single outsource to India I've ever seens has been a catastrophic failure. More for cultural issues than for knowledge or ability, but it just underscores my point that a roomful of degreed people isn't meaningful of and by itself. Most of the great solutions to IT problems (methodologies, CASE, portable languages) that I've ever seen have some academic research component or stem directly from academic research. How many of them have actually solved the application backlog, legacy program issues, bad code, yadda, yadda, yadda? Most of the daft ideas I had when I started out came from listening to professors and lecturers who taught me how things should be done in an ideal world or in very abstract and artificial environments and left me entirely unprepared for what was really out there. I remain defiantly sceptical that an academic education *by itself* is worth anything. The ability to get a degree does not automatically imply any other abilities. The inability (or lack of whatever) to get one does not automatically imply any other inabilities. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche

Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > You can't teach experience, Daniel. You can't in a classroom environment > convey all the nuances of real life. True. But you can teach how to deal with problems in the same manner as those with the experience. Surely you know that this is a standard business school and law school technique. Keep in mind my average student already has 10 years in the industry ... just not with one specific tool. > Yes, but the vast majority of them are used to run (as per one of your > examples) Siebel or Oracle Financials, or other non-life-threatening > applications. In fact, I've consulted to over 100 companies (probably > closer to 200, I really have lost count) and never been involved in a > project where lives were at risk. When I say consulted, I mean I've done > something useful, not just popped around for a chat. And I have consulted with medical boards, hospitals, government agencies, and Boeing where lives were a critical part of what was at stake. But even with SAP or PeopleSoft there are important issues. If mistakes are made people go to jail. If mistakes are made people lose their investments. Even as basic a task as a bank ATM or accounting of credit card charges and payments, if incorrect, could be devastating. >>Good attempt at diversion but it fails. > > Gee thanks! The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind. Academic freedom: I call 'em as I see 'em. > Oh, bullshit. In terms of the use of a database, building a good database > requires understanding the business and a degree of ability. You can't > possibly teach me from the hallowed halls of Washington U how a parts > manufacturer would want to use his database. And you really don't need a > degree to learn about normalising a database. Why is it everyone that disagrees with me ends up with defacatory references? ;-) Washington U is in St. Louis more than 1000 miles away from me. With respect to the two items you list above I respectfully disagree. Both because they are standard parts of many university curriculums but also because, once again, you are making assumptions on what is taught that are just plain ... well creative. Not once have I stated that I teach normalization: I don't. Thus, I've cut the rest of the thread. There is no value in a discussion in which you tell me what it is that I teach ... apparently just filling in the nulls with default values. -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Daniel Morgan wrote: > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > >> You can't teach experience, Daniel. You can't in a classroom environment >> convey all the nuances of real life. > > True. But you can teach how to deal with problems in the same manner as > those with the experience. Surely you know that this is a standard > business school and law school technique. Keep in mind my average > student already has 10 years in the industry ... just not with one > specific tool. Yeah, right. It's taken me 20 years to learn all the things I've learned (some of the directly contradictory to current wisdom and state of the art) -- and you're going to teach them all that in a semester, just because they have a degree? >> Yes, but the vast majority of them are used to run (as per one of your >> examples) Siebel or Oracle Financials, or other non-life-threatening >> applications. In fact, I've consulted to over 100 companies (probably >> closer to 200, I really have lost count) and never been involved in a >> project where lives were at risk. When I say consulted, I mean I've done >> something useful, not just popped around for a chat. > > And I have consulted with medical boards, hospitals, government > agencies, and Boeing where lives were a critical part of what was at > stake. Well, aren't you a lucky one. And your degree enables you to talk to all of them with authority and with complete removal of all risks, despite the vastly different "industries" they are in? Please let me know what degree that is, because I'll definitely grab one of them. > But even with SAP or PeopleSoft there are important issues. If mistakes > are made people go to jail. If mistakes are made people lose their > investments. Even as basic a task as a bank ATM or accounting of credit > card charges and payments, if incorrect, could be devastating. > >>>Good attempt at diversion but it fails. >> >> Gee thanks! The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind. > > Academic freedom: I call 'em as I see 'em. OK, here's "street" freedom: I call 'em as I see 'em too. >> Oh, bullshit. In terms of the use of a database, building a good database >> requires understanding the business and a degree of ability. You can't >> possibly teach me from the hallowed halls of Washington U how a parts >> manufacturer would want to use his database. And you really don't need a >> degree to learn about normalising a database. > > Why is it everyone that disagrees with me ends up with defacatory > references? ;-) I don't know, but you are certainly the common factor... > Washington U is in St. Louis more than 1000 miles away from me. With > respect to the two items you list above I respectfully disagree. Both > because they are standard parts of many university curriculums but also > because, once again, you are making assumptions on what is taught that > are just plain ... well creative. Not once have I stated that I teach > normalization: I don't. I didn't say that you did. I was just saying that theory or academic research was not something to be discarded entirely and that it could be useful. I still stand by original point, which is that no matter how good your course is and how good you are, academic education by itself is as much use as a hat full of dandruff. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche

Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > Yeah, right. It's taken me 20 years to learn all the things I've learned > (some of the directly contradictory to current wisdom and state of the art) > -- and you're going to teach them all that in a semester, just because they > have a degree? All 20 years no? But better that then what most people do to learn which is to hack around at work getting a bit of this and a bit of that. BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one person here thought an intellectual exercise of value. That may explain much don't you think? ;-) -- Daniel Morgan http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/oad/oad_crs.asp http://www.outreach.washington.edu/ext/certificates/aoa/aoa_crs.asp damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Daniel Morgan wrote: > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > >> Yeah, right. It's taken me 20 years to learn all the things I've >> learned (some of the directly contradictory to current wisdom and >> state of the art) -- and you're going to teach them all that in a >> semester, just because they have a degree? > > > All 20 years no? But better that then what most people do to learn which > is to hack around at work getting a bit of this and a bit of that. > > BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find > it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one > person here thought an intellectual exercise of value. > > That may explain much don't you think? ;-) > I suspect you are correct - it explains a lot about you - most of us here work FULL TIME for a living. -- Clive

Daniel Morgan wrote: > BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find > it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one > person here thought an intellectual exercise of value. > > That may explain much don't you think? ;-) > You didn't give any context in your post in the Oracle group. The topic at hand in this thread here does not seem to be to solve an SQL puzzle. -- Serge Rielau DB2 SQL Compiler Development IBM Toronto Lab

Daniel Morgan wrote: > Obnoxio The Clown wrote: > >> Yeah, right. It's taken me 20 years to learn all the things I've learned >> (some of the directly contradictory to current wisdom and state of the >> art) -- and you're going to teach them all that in a semester, just >> because they have a degree? > > All 20 years no? But better that then what most people do to learn which > is to hack around at work getting a bit of this and a bit of that. > > BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find > it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one > person here thought an intellectual exercise of value. > > That may explain much don't you think? ;-) Yes, they're used to wasting their time on needless complexity. We're all having lives. -- "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ''' dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche

Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> wrote in message news:<1078425270.256175@yasure>... > BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find > it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one > person here thought [it] an intellectual exercise of value. You find it fascinating that people who subscribe to an Oracle newsgroup are more interested in an Oracle seminar than people who don't? Most people would think that unsurprising. DG

Daniel Morgan <damorgan@x.washington.edu> writes: > BTW: Check out how the Oracle crowd at c.d.o.servers responded. I find > it fascinating that many there took me up on the challenge and not one > person here thought an intellectual exercise of value. Show me a real world spec written like your "intellectual exercise". The Clown doesn't need to prove his point if you're going to do it for him. > That may explain much don't you think? ;-) Indeed it does! Does the expression "mental masturbation" mean anything to you? -- Forte International, P.O. Box 1412, Ridgecrest, CA 93556-1412 Ronald Cole <ronald@forte-intl.com> Phone: (760) 499-9142 President, CEO Fax: (760) 499-9152 My GPG fingerprint: C3AF 4BE9 BEA6 F1C2 B084 4A88 8851 E6C8 69E3 B00B