Postgres database vs Informix

Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers within our company are advocating the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) than Postgres is "free/open source." They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and the use of SPL's, triggers and any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff all business logic etc... into the Java App Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history table to track any update that occurs they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database should be used and how everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the DBA out of loop until they are ready to deploy. So I guess I have really two questions. 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not why not? If it is, why? 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers relate to DBA's elsewhere. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank you.

----LNX_Fri_Oct_01_2004_14:47:04_V3.33-- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Datum: 2004.10.01 13:57:37 >Sender: Peter J Dia.... <pdiazdeleon@infinityhealthcare.com> > >Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers >within our company are advocating >the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) >than Postgres is "free/open source." >They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnosticand >the use of SPL's, triggers and >any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff >all business logic etc... into the Java App >Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history >table to track any update that occurs >they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of >Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. = There exist two design philosophies: To put everything into the applicati= on and use the database only as a reliable data store (for example SAP worksthat= way) , or to put all the logic (or a lot of it) into the database . Many database v= endors implicate that model when they incorporate java, html and mighty (procedu= ral) languages into their products. = What's better? I don't know! Maybe sometimes this, sometimes that. = I don't know Postgres, but from the DBA point of view you should look at things like performance (difficult to measure) , possibility of online= backups , transaction handling/rollback , optimizer , index options - probably ther= e are differences :-) = Regards, Andreas Kutsche ------------------------------------------------ SPAR Oesterreichische Warenhandels-AG Hauptzentrale Europastra=DFe 3 A-5015 Salzburg = Telefon : +43 662 4470 24423 E-Mail : Andreas.KUTSCHE@spar.at Internet: http://www.spar.at ------------------------------------------------ = ----LNX_Fri_Oct_01_2004_14:47:04_V3.33----

Peter J Dia.... said: > > Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers > within our company are advocating > the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) > than Postgres is "free/open source." Fecking eejits! Arse! Drink! Girls! > They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and > the use of SPL's, triggers and > any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff > all business logic etc... into the Java App > Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history > table to track any update that occurs > they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of > Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. Yes, next think you know they'll be writing all their own file access routines, too. > They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database > should be used and how > everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the > DBA out of loop until they are > ready to deploy. That's a bad thing, but since they don't seem to want to do things using a database, there's not much you can do about it, except point it out to your boss. > So I guess I have really two questions. > 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not > why not? If it is, why? No, because it's slow and incomplete. > 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers > relate to DBA's elsewhere. Sadly, yes it is. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. When all you have is Java skill, then... -- Bye now, Obnoxio "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche "I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't get my head up my ass" - JCH "Ogni uomo mi guarda come se fossi una testa di cazzo" - Marco http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

We develop applications using INFORMIX, ORACLE and POSTGRES. We are using POSTGRES (LINUX) for application with few data. For our applications, we use a limit 2 million rows per table. Until release 7.4 POSTGRES has some problems with online backup. Another problem is the update command that does an delete/insert. This deleted records must be removed with an administration command (VACUUM). Jairo Gubler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter J Dia...." <pdiazdeleon@infinityhealthcare.com> To: <ids@iiug.org> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 8:20 AM Subject: Postgres database vs Informix [3517] Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers within our company are advocating the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) than Postgres is "free/open source." They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and the use of SPL's, triggers and any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff all business logic etc... into the Java App Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history table to track any update that occurs they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database should be used and how everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the DBA out of loop until they are ready to deploy. So I guess I have really two questions. 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not why not? If it is, why? 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers relate to DBA's elsewhere. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank you.

I recently read an On-Line IBM paper, but I can't remember where or the name of the author. It was a post in this forum. In it he explains that there is no _much_ point in not to use features of a database which gives flexibility and speed for some kind of requirements. If you have a database like Informix/DB2 then why not to use features as datablades which resolves complex problems easily. I understand the programmers position in trying to be database agnostic, is better for them if they have to move the application to other database which could be dauntig. Your best bet is by comparing the performace/features Informix have compared with the ones of Postgresql. Chucho! Obnoxio The.... wrote: > Peter J Dia.... said: > >>Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers >>within our company are advocating >>the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) >>than Postgres is "free/open source." > > > Fecking eejits! Arse! Drink! Girls! > > >>They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and >>the use of SPL's, triggers and >>any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff >>all business logic etc... into the Java App >>Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history >>table to track any update that occurs >>they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of >>Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. > > > Yes, next think you know they'll be writing all their own file access > routines, too. > > >>They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database >>should be used and how >>everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the >>DBA out of loop until they are >>ready to deploy. > > > That's a bad thing, but since they don't seem to want to do things using a > database, there's not much you can do about it, except point it out to > your boss. > > >>So I guess I have really two questions. >>1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not >>why not? If it is, why? > > > No, because it's slow and incomplete. > > >>2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers >>relate to DBA's elsewhere. > > > Sadly, yes it is. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like > a nail. When all you have is Java skill, then... >

Peter -- We have migrated most of our site to use postgres instead of Informix and are generally satisfied (cost was the overwhelming reason, plus a bit of wariness of IBM's plans for Informix/DB2 which would probably require some migration anyway). But our experience may not be applicable to you -- our runtime database is heavily read/only (with occasional massive updates) and depends very heavily of the spatial blade (postGIS being the postgres equivalent). We have gotten roughly similar results from postgres as we do from Informix -- both after some tuning work. Informix has an edge in raw disk speed when using raw disks and native Informix support for this is good, but not applicable in all environments, as I understand it. Database migration is *not* a thing to be done lightly, but this has mostly not been too painful. Postgres is -- contrary to opinion of another poster -- a mature product with serious capabilities (especially in the current beta relase of postgres 8.0) but there may be specific thing your site needs that it can't provide. Its replication is not as advanced as Informix' for instance, but there is replication that may meet your requirememnts. Perusing the postgres archives might give yousome idea of how well this tool would work for you; there are some sites that do large volume OLTP, for instance, but we don't so I can't address it well, for instance. Never had a bad experience with Informix and got help with downed site issues even when contractual issues were, uhm, unclear. While you can buy support from various companies for postgres, we haven't. So far the postgres forums (and a bit of extra help from the postGIS creators) has given us timely relief from a the issues we have had). As for developers -- they can't be allowed to run the DB side of things, and need to work *with* the DBA. There are some things that a database can do, and some it can't no matter how much they try. This was true when I was DBA at TRW using Informix, and applies in my current job as well. There are subtleties to a database that developer ought not/need not worry about, but it has to be a cooperative effort or I fear for the long term success of the effort. Greg Williamson DBA GlobeXplorer LLC ---Original message--- SUBJECT: Postgres database vs Informix [3517] URL: http://www.iiug.org/forums/ids/?rev=3517 AUTHOR: Peter J Dia.... DATE: Friday, 1 October 2004, at 7:20 a.m. Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers within our company are advocating the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) than Postgres is "free/open source." They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and the use of SPL's, triggers and any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff all business logic etc... into the Java App Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history table to track any update that occurs they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database should be used and how everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the DBA out of loop until they are ready to deploy. So I guess I have really two questions. 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not why not? If it is, why? 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers relate to DBA's elsewhere. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank you.

Sebastian, Norma J. said: > >>> 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers > >>> relate to DBA's elsewhere. > >>Sadly, yes it is. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks > like a nail. >>When all you have is Java skill, then... > > No, I think it depends on the relationship you develop with your > programmers. If they feel you are not helpful, not easy to access, not > there when they need you.... Why not try to find their own answers. *I* don't have a problem. But I have been to sites were the politics have come into play, and the developers have run rough shod over the DBA team's good advice, because they want to do things in a programmers way. Just one tiny for instance: instead of doing a SELECT SUM(field) FROM table WHERE, a developer was scanning an entire table into separate Java objects and then adding up the field in question. His reason for not using SELECT SUM? "I thought it would be a lot slower" > But then again, you are the DBA and you have the power to make them > better programmers... > i.e... If they create parent/child relationships in the database design > (without foreign keys) and then their code does not insert parent & > child.... And they complain that your database (notice how it becomes > "yours" now, not "theirs") is not taking the data corrrectly.... Then > you put foreign keys on and make the database kick back at them... And > if they complain, take it to their boss.... If that is how they want to > code, they better do it well. Yes, but what happens if PHB comes back and says "take those key thingummies off the database, they're holding us back"? > Either those programmers have a really bad taste in their mouths from > past bad experience with DBAs or there is something between you and them > that they don't trust you.... Everybody trusts _me_. They just ignore me, is all. -- Bye now, Obnoxio "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule" - Coluche "I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't get my head up my ass" - JCH "Ogni uomo mi guarda come se fossi una testa di cazzo" - Marco http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Oh! yeahh!! ;) -----Original Message----- From: "Obnoxio The...." <obnoxio@serendipita.com> To: ids@iiug.org Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Postgres database vs Informix [3528] Everybody trusts _me_. They just ignore me, is all. Jean Sagi jeansagi@myrealbox.com jeansagi@yahoo.com

1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not why not? If it is, why? No, checkout sybase who are coming out with a free substitute for linux o/s. Furthermore I am sure it has a few intrinsic problems which is why not many people have taken it up in the corporate world. 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers relate to DBA's elsewhere. For some DBAs I guess that is the case but in general developers have a habit of underestimating the importance of DBAs and database platforms and it's abilities and also their understanding of how to get the best out of databases is limited. DBAs should not be left out of any loop. If developers control the way the database environment runs and operates you will be having a hard time (having been a project DBA as well in the past). L Lee Aholima, Database Administrator Thames-Coromandel District Council Ph 07 868 6025 Email lee.aholima@tcdc.govt.nz Mobile 0274333915 The contents of this e-mail maybe CONFIDENTIAL OR LEGALLY PRIVILEGED, & is intended only for the persons named above. If this e-mail is not addressed to you, you must not use, read, distribute or copy this document. If you have received this document by mistake, please call us and destroy the original. Thank you. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jairo Gubler [mailto:jairo.gubler@digitro.com.br]=20 Sent: Saturday, 2 October 2004 1:31 a.m. To: ids@iiug.org Subject: Re: Postgres database vs Informix [3520]=20 We develop applications using INFORMIX, ORACLE and POSTGRES. We are using POSTGRES (LINUX) for application with few data. For our applications, we use a limit 2 million rows per table. Until release 7.4 POSTGRES has some problems with online backup. Another problem is the update command that does an delete/insert. This deleted records must be removed with an administration command (VACUUM). Jairo Gubler ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Peter J Dia...." <pdiazdeleon@infinityhealthcare.com> To: <ids@iiug.org> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 8:20 AM Subject: Postgres database vs Informix [3517] Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers within our company are advocating the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems) than Postgres is "free/open source." They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and the use of SPL's, triggers and any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff all business logic etc... into the Java App Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history table to track any update that occurs they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database should be used and how everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the DBA out of loop until they are ready to deploy. So I guess I have really two questions. 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not why not? If it is, why? 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers relate to DBA's elsewhere. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank you.

Who will provide ongoing support for Postgres? Will Postgres be able to=20 scale to handle the volume of users and transactions you require? VA=20 Software (formally VA Linux) founded the SourceForge.net (sf.net) website. = sf.net is the world's largest open source software development website,=20 with the largest repository of open source code and applications available = on the Internet. sf.net launched in Nov 1999 and at the time had less than = 500 hosted projects. Today, sf.net has over 59,000 hosted projects and=20 over =BD million registered users. When sf.net launched, they decided to us= e=20 PostgreSQL as the database. sf.net enjoyed tremendous growth ? and as the=20 number of users and applications increased, Postgres would crash four to=20 five times a day because it couldn?t handle the increased number of=20 transactions. SourceForge has now migrated off Postgres. If a security vulnerability exists in Postgres, who will fix it and how=20 quickly?=20 Christine Normile Informix Market Manager IBM Software Group Data Management Solutions Phone/Fax 877.252.5399 Email cnormile@us.ibm.com "Peter J Dia...." <pdiazdeleon@infinityhealthcare.com> Sent by: forum.subscriber@iiug.org 10/01/2004 06:20 AM =20 To: ids@iiug.org cc:=20 Subject: Postgres database vs Informix [3517] Can anyone shed some light on this for me. Some of the developers=20 within our company are advocating the move from Informix 9.4.x to Postgres for no other reason (it seems)=20 than Postgres is "free/open source."=20 They are of the mind set that everything should be database agnostic and=20 the use of SPL's, triggers and any form of business logic in the DB is evil. There plan it to stuff=20 all business logic etc... into the Java App Server. For example, instead of using triggers to create a history=20 table to track any update that occurs they decided to place that logic in the App Server. They use of=20 Tapestry and Hibernate are increasing. They believe (the developers) should have complete say on what database=20 should be used and how everything should be architecture from start to finish leaving me the=20 DBA out of loop until they are ready to deploy. So I guess I have really two questions. 1) Is Postgres database a potential replacement for Informix. If not=20 why not? If it is, why? 2) Are the way the developers relate to me the DBA the way developers=20 relate to DBA's elsewhere. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is=20 for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed=20 incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any = unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If=20 you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply=20 e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all=20 attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank = you.

Is there something wrong with this list? I haven't seen much for that last week. Thanks Peter ---------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments,is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s), even if addressed incorrectly, and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy or delete all copies of the original message and all attachments, including deletion from the trash or equivalent folder. Thank you.