Re: Informix beats Oracle

DA Morgan wrote: > Tool wrote: >> takes up less space on your system yet delivers more power than Oracle >> and >> other enterprise database products at a fraction of the cost. > > Perhaps I am misunderstanding the licensing page on IBM's website. But > what I read is: > > "An IBM Rational Authorized User license allows a single, specific > individual to use an IBM Rational product." and that license is $900 > for a single year. > https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpress/Express?P0=E1&part_number=D51QLLL&catalogLocale=en_US&Locale=en_US&country=USA > > > When I look at the corresponding Oracle pricing I see $800 for: > "Oracle Database Enterprise Edition - Named User Plus Perpetual[$800.00] > > http://oraclestore.oracle.com/OA_HTML/ibeCZzpHome.jsp?minisite=10021&respid=22372&grp=STORE&language=US > > > What am I misunderstanding? Too much... to be honest this reminds me a previous post where someone said benchmarks were useless because they tried to compare what was not comparable... Let's see...: 1- Your first link point to Informix Online 5 pricing (not IDS we've been discussing). It's for a concurrent session 2- This price includes 1 year of maintenance (includes phone support etc.) 3- The quote you make refers to Rational License... Not the same as Informix licensing. I can't explain why the site shows that... 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 5- Your Oracle pricing "forgets" the minimum user licensing... 25 named users + 1 server license (ouch...) 6- Your Oracle pricing does not include several Options (partitioning for example) 7- (question): Does the oracle pricing include support? Of course we could keep this thread for ages discussing what you get for equivalent money but understanding software pricing has become a hard job... don't try to present a simplification that will mislead readers... Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

AFAIK, the problem is about packaging. Oracle Enterprise license doesn't include features, such as 'table partitioning', 'parallel query', 'encryption', 'replication' To compare 'apple to apple', one should add all these features and compare the resulting price -Alexey -----Original Message----- From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Nunes Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 8:38 PM To: informix-list@iiug.org Subject: Re: Informix beats Oracle DA Morgan wrote: > Tool wrote: >> takes up less space on your system yet delivers more power than Oracle >> and >> other enterprise database products at a fraction of the cost. > > Perhaps I am misunderstanding the licensing page on IBM's website. But > what I read is: > > "An IBM Rational Authorized User license allows a single, specific > individual to use an IBM Rational product." and that license is $900 > for a single year. > https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpress/Express? P0=E1&part_number=D51QLLL&catalogLocale=en_US&Locale=en_US&country=USA > > > When I look at the corresponding Oracle pricing I see $800 for: > "Oracle Database Enterprise Edition - Named User Plus Perpetual[$800.00] > > http://oraclestore.oracle.com/OA_HTML/ibeCZzpHome.jsp?minisite=10021&res pid=22372&grp=STORE&language=US > > > What am I misunderstanding? Too much... to be honest this reminds me a previous post where someone said benchmarks were useless because they tried to compare what was not comparable... Let's see...: 1- Your first link point to Informix Online 5 pricing (not IDS we've been discussing). It's for a concurrent session 2- This price includes 1 year of maintenance (includes phone support etc.) 3- The quote you make refers to Rational License... Not the same as Informix licensing. I can't explain why the site shows that... 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CM P=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 5- Your Oracle pricing "forgets" the minimum user licensing... 25 named users + 1 server license (ouch...) 6- Your Oracle pricing does not include several Options (partitioning for example) 7- (question): Does the oracle pricing include support? Of course we could keep this thread for ages discussing what you get for equivalent money but understanding software pricing has become a hard job... don't try to present a simplification that will mislead readers... Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently... _______________________________________________ Informix-list mailing list Informix-list@iiug.org http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

Alexey Sonkin wrote: > AFAIK, the problem is about packaging. > Oracle Enterprise license doesn't include features, > such as 'table partitioning', 'parallel query', > 'encryption', 'replication' > > To compare 'apple to apple', one should add all these features > and compare the resulting price > > -Alexey What you "know" is not correct. Oracle's EE does all of the above. Oracle's Standard Edition all except partitioning. Some are done, quite nicely, be the free XE version. But I agree about comparing apples to apples. Informix doesn't have RAC, or Flashback, or ... a near endless list of other Oracle basics. So I'd suggest not going down that road of what you get, or don't get, for your money. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

Fernando Nunes wrote: > 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: > http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 Thanks ... appreciate the link. I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

DA Morgan wrote: > Fernando Nunes wrote: > >> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 > > > Thanks ... appreciate the link. > > I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than Oracle... You have to be careful... You may end up asking "why the hell should we pay more, when we can get performance, reliability and functionality for less?" No need to say sorry... I'm not sorry for supporting customers who asked themselves the question above and found the obvious answer... Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

DA Morgan wrote: > Alexey Sonkin wrote: >> AFAIK, the problem is about packaging. >> Oracle Enterprise license doesn't include features, >> such as 'table partitioning', 'parallel query', >> 'encryption', 'replication' >> >> To compare 'apple to apple', one should add all these features >> and compare the resulting price >> >> -Alexey > > What you "know" is not correct. > > Oracle's EE does all of the above. > Oracle's Standard Edition all except partitioning. > Some are done, quite nicely, be the free XE version. > > But I agree about comparing apples to apples. > > Informix doesn't have RAC, or Flashback, or ... a > near endless list of other Oracle basics. So I'd > suggest not going down that road of what you get, > or don't get, for your money. No... please... don't go there... If you do, I have to continue browsing... And then I'll find: http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: - RAC (obviously) - Database Vault - Oracle Advanced Security - Label based security - OLAP (understandable) - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) - Data Mining (understandable) I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this newsgroup exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk about Informix than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... Database wars are over... or not?! Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

>From: Fernando Nunes <spam@domus.online.pt> >http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html > >And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: > >- RAC (obviously) >- Database Vault >- Oracle Advanced Security >- Label based security >- OLAP (understandable) >- Partitioning (what did you said above?!) >- Data Mining (understandable) > >I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this newsgroup >exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk about Informix >than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... Database wars are >over... >or not?! > Correct, and what do we get with IDS 11? aka CHEETAH! Oh a whole lot more than Oracle provides. You see Daniel, pound for pound Informix is the better engine. Larry made his money by selling snake oil and then pushing in to the application space. For those who dont' need to develop their own apps in house, he's selling Oracle, PeopleSoft, and JDE on Oracle's engine in an effort to get them to buy his database. So what does that say? You've just proved our point that Informix really does beat Oracle. And as for dodging Serge's question... let me guess. You're waiting for 11i to hit the streets because that's the release that they supposedly fix this issue. ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: Fernando Nunes <spam@domus.online.pt> >> http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html >> >> And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: >> >> - RAC (obviously) >> - Database Vault >> - Oracle Advanced Security >> - Label based security >> - OLAP (understandable) >> - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) >> - Data Mining (understandable) >> >> I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this >> newsgroup >> exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk about >> Informix >> than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... Database wars are >> over... >> or not?! >> > Correct, and what do we get with IDS 11? aka CHEETAH! > > Oh a whole lot more than Oracle provides. That is wholesale nonsense sold at a price slightly above open source. I've no doubt you truly believe what you wrote. But rather that, to paraphrase Rumsfeld: "There are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns. In your case Oracle is mostly unknown unknowns. Lets just look at tables, the most basic structure in a database and see how things compare? heap tables? ... of course yes. <g> tables that automatically empty on commit? tables that automatically empty on session exit? tables with automatic compression? external tables (operating system files that can be queried)? index organized tables (combine the table and primary key into a single structure)? Hash partitioned tables? List partitioned tables? Range partitioned tables? Composite partitioning by range and hash? Composite partitioning by range and list? Nested tables (tables nested within other tables)? Nested tables (tables with variable length arrays stored within them)? Native spatial data types? Native movie, sound, and graphic data types? Native XML data types? Native data type for storing date-time with timezone? Native data type for storing date/time intervals? Native polymorphic data types? Native BLOB data type (up to 128TB per column per row)? Columns with fully automated DES and AES encryption (up to AES 256) Tables accessible by column hash values Multiple tables physically co-located within a single block (page)? You've got more? Please enlighten me by adding to my list. Thanks. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Fernando Nunes wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> Fernando Nunes wrote: >> >>> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >>> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 >> >> >> >> Thanks ... appreciate the link. >> >> I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. > > This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than > Oracle... I've no doubt IDS is cheaper than Oracle EE and no doubt it is far more expensive than Oracle XE. One must compare with a version with comparable features if such a beast exists. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

DA Morgan wrote: > Fernando Nunes wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>> >>>> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >>>> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks ... appreciate the link. >>> >>> I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. >> >> This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than >> Oracle... > > I've no doubt IDS is cheaper than Oracle EE and no doubt it is far more > expensive than Oracle XE. One must compare with a version with > comparable features if such a beast exists. Not trying to beat a dead dog here but can someone explain this to me? http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/idshelp/v10/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.esqlc.doc/esqlc02.htm The header on the frame says: "IBM Informix Dynamic Server, Version 10 IBM Client SDK, Version 2.9" and the contents says: "Some members of the DB2' family of servers do not support fragmenting by range, and attaching and detaching fragments." Is Informix now considered to be part of the DB2 family? -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> > >Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > > > > > >> From: Fernando Nunes <spam@domus.online.pt> > >> http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html > >> > >> And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: > >> > >> - RAC (obviously) > >> - Database Vault > >> - Oracle Advanced Security > >> - Label based security > >> - OLAP (understandable) > >> - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) > >> - Data Mining (understandable) > >> > >> I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this > >> newsgroup > >> exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk about > >> Informix > >> than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... Database wars are > >> over... > >> or not?! > >> > > Correct, and what do we get with IDS 11? aka CHEETAH! > > > > Oh a whole lot more than Oracle provides. > >That is wholesale nonsense sold at a price slightly above open source. > >I've no doubt you truly believe what you wrote. But rather that, to >paraphrase Rumsfeld: "There are known unknowns and there are unknown >unknowns. In your case Oracle is mostly unknown unknowns. > Silly boy. You've just shown your true colors. You don't know jack about IDS. At least Daniel, I work with Oracle 9 on a daily basis. Writing Java, PL/SQL and now Python scripts. I'll probably start writing some Ruby scripts too, if the client likes my Python framework. I guess its true what they say. Those that can, do. Those that can't? Teach. LOL... I guess we can now officially call you a Troll. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail to go? Get your Hotmail, news, sports and much more! http://mobile.msn.com

>From: DA Morgan <damorgan@psoug.org> >Is Informix now considered to be part of the DB2 family? >-- > Daniel, For a troll, you're easily confused by IBM's history. So for the sake of shutting you up. DB2 was at one time both the IBM Brand Name/Pillar Name and the product name. So you had DB2, CM and IMS within the DB2 pillar (Don't ask about CM) So when IBM acquired Informix, the brand/pillar/division was DB2. Since then IBM has changed the pillar name to Information Management. So under the IBM pillar, you have DB2, IMS, CM, IDS, Redbrick U2 and Cloudscape. (I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two, but you get the point.) And also note: DB2 is DB2 for z/OS, DB2 for I, and DB2 for LUW (Linux Unix Windows) Also included in Information Mangement are the Ascential tools along with the Venetica acquisition and some other stuff. IM is the largest pillar in SWG, which also contains, Tivolli, Lotus, Websphere and Rational brands. When you look at the IBM web pages, you may still see several that have the DB2 logo as the pillar. It sucks, but I believe that the SWG website is controlled by IGS and they aint to bright. (Or that there's an internal charge back from SWG to IGS for the maintenance of the pages.) But hey! what do I know? I'm one of the lucky ones who's escaped from the belly of the blue beast. ;-) (And I know I'm gonna to hell for saying dat one. ;-) -G _________________________________________________________________ Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

DA Morgan wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>> DA Morgan wrote: >>>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>>> >>>>> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >>>>> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks ... appreciate the link. >>>> >>>> I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. >>> >>> This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than >>> Oracle... >> >> I've no doubt IDS is cheaper than Oracle EE and no doubt it is far more >> expensive than Oracle XE. One must compare with a version with >> comparable features if such a beast exists. > > Not trying to beat a dead dog here but can someone explain this to me? > > http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/idshelp/v10/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.esqlc.doc/esqlc02.htm > > > The header on the frame says: > "IBM Informix Dynamic Server, Version 10 IBM Client SDK, Version 2.9" > > and the contents says: > > "Some members of the DB2' family of servers do not support fragmenting > by range, and attaching and detaching fragments." > > Is Informix now considered to be part of the DB2 family? Not really --- long story.... When Janet Perna was general manager, DB2 was the brand name. That led to a lot of confusion. For instance IMS was under the DB2 brand ( really silly ). The brand name has been changed, but unfortunately web pages have a life of their own. IDS had supported range fragmentation, fragmentation attach, detach for many years now. BTW -

Madison Pruet wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>>> DA Morgan wrote: >>>>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >>>>>> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CMP=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks ... appreciate the link. >>>>> >>>>> I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. >>>> >>>> This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than >>>> Oracle... >>> >>> I've no doubt IDS is cheaper than Oracle EE and no doubt it is far more >>> expensive than Oracle XE. One must compare with a version with >>> comparable features if such a beast exists. >> >> Not trying to beat a dead dog here but can someone explain this to me? >> >> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/idshelp/v10/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.esqlc.doc/esqlc02.htm >> >> >> The header on the frame says: >> "IBM Informix Dynamic Server, Version 10 IBM Client SDK, Version 2.9" >> >> and the contents says: >> >> "Some members of the DB2' family of servers do not support fragmenting >> by range, and attaching and detaching fragments." >> >> Is Informix now considered to be part of the DB2 family? > > Not really --- long story.... Thanks for the clarification. > IDS had supported range fragmentation, fragmentation attach, detach for > many years now. > > BTW - I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning had made it in yet. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > When you look at the IBM web pages, you may still see several that have > the DB2 logo as the pillar. I agree. But it wasn't on the pillar ... it was the text. Thanks for the clarification. I just keep getting the impression that IBM is still treating Informix as a poor step-child ... so I asked. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

Daniel, IDS is very flexible about partitioning. 'Range partitioning' is just a subset of very generic definition of table expression-based partitioning (though, Informix optimizer clearly distinguishes this type of partitioning and is capable of very smart use of partitioned indexes). You can create a multi-criteria partitioning strategy, effectively combining range partitioning with, say, partitioning by function. If you define you own hash function for a column, then, yes, you can combine hash and range partitioning. IDS (unfortunately) doesn't provide 'generic' hash function for you, but workaround is very simple. Attach/detach/drop/create partition functionality in IDS is fantastic. Hybrid fragmentation (combination of hash fragmentation across cluster nodes and exression-based within each node) is available in Informix XPS - server, targeted exclusively for DataWarehousing: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/zones/informix/library/techarticle /0206metzger/0206metzger1.html -Alexey -----Original Message----- From: informix-list-bounces@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-bounces@iiug.org] On Behalf Of DA Morgan Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:57 PM To: informix-list@iiug.org Subject: Re: Informix beats Oracle Madison Pruet wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>>> DA Morgan wrote: >>>>> Fernando Nunes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 4- In this link you can see prices for various IDS licenses: >>>>>> http://www-950.ibm.com/ecatalog/Detail.wss?locale=en_US&S_TACT=none&S_CM P=none&synkey=F106034N08119V60 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks ... appreciate the link. >>>>> >>>>> I guess they sell it for what they can get for it. <g> Sorry. >>>> >>>> This could be interpreted as you finally saying IDS is cheaper than >>>> Oracle... >>> >>> I've no doubt IDS is cheaper than Oracle EE and no doubt it is far more >>> expensive than Oracle XE. One must compare with a version with >>> comparable features if such a beast exists. >> >> Not trying to beat a dead dog here but can someone explain this to me? >> >> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/idshelp/v10/index.jsp?topic=/co m.ibm.esqlc.doc/esqlc02.htm >> >> >> The header on the frame says: >> "IBM Informix Dynamic Server, Version 10 IBM Client SDK, Version 2.9" >> >> and the contents says: >> >> "Some members of the DB2(r) family of servers do not support fragmenting >> by range, and attaching and detaching fragments." >> >> Is Informix now considered to be part of the DB2 family? > > Not really --- long story.... Thanks for the clarification. > IDS had supported range fragmentation, fragmentation attach, detach for > many years now. > > BTW - I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning had made it in yet. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) _______________________________________________ Informix-list mailing list Informix-list@iiug.org http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

Quick question for you Fernando or anyone else... With the introduction of MACH11, do you still need a secondary product for HA such as HP Serviceguard, or Red Hat Cluster Manager or other HA product on the machine at the OS level if there are no other applications requiring HA? I realize these products manage anything/everything else HA besides the database, but am curious if MACH11 requires these kinds of products or if it can act alone. I do know DB2 can act on its own, having set up HADR on DB2, but was curious if IDS MACH11 needs some other OS product with it or not. ( For those not familiar with MACH11 it's basically the answer to RAC Daniel. ) Thanks in advance... -t- Fernando Nunes wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> Alexey Sonkin wrote: >>> AFAIK, the problem is about packaging. >>> Oracle Enterprise license doesn't include features, >>> such as 'table partitioning', 'parallel query', >>> 'encryption', 'replication' >>> >>> To compare 'apple to apple', one should add all these features >>> and compare the resulting price >>> >>> -Alexey >> >> What you "know" is not correct. >> >> Oracle's EE does all of the above. >> Oracle's Standard Edition all except partitioning. >> Some are done, quite nicely, be the free XE version. >> >> But I agree about comparing apples to apples. >> >> Informix doesn't have RAC, or Flashback, or ... a >> near endless list of other Oracle basics. So I'd >> suggest not going down that road of what you get, >> or don't get, for your money. > > No... please... don't go there... If you do, I have to continue > browsing... And then I'll find: > > http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html > > And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: > > - RAC (obviously) > - Database Vault > - Oracle Advanced Security > - Label based security > - OLAP (understandable) > - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) > - Data Mining (understandable) > > I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this > newsgroup exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk > about Informix than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... > Database wars are over... or not?! > > > > Regards. > -- informix ( in FOR mix ) American English. A combination of "inform" and Unix. Originally a software product running primarily on UNIX platforms, it is still widely available for UNIX, Linux, and Windows computer platforms. Informix IDS, the database engine with the future built in, is available today with current releases offering one of the fastest databases, advanced technology, and super cool technology that application developers will love. Suitable and preferable for Java and Web Applications. Easy to use, easy to admin, Informix takes up less space on your system yet delivers more power than Oracle and other enterprise database products at a fraction of the cost. Other Definitions of Informix: 1. Database software typically chosen when choosing database products that don't have a marketing program. Compares favorably with other database engines such as Oracle, but at a fraction of the cost. 2. A collection of cool, highly advanced database technologies suitable for large and small data-driven applications for Java and Web applications. Can offer more choices for complex architectures than any other database engine. 3. Easy to use, easy to admin database engine for large and small businesses and applications, requiring very little data base administration or attendance. Ideal for vertical applications requiring high availability. 4. Consistently high uptime database engine requiring little to no downtime. 5. A database engine capable of managing data at very high speeds and capacity but available at a fraction of the cost of other database engines in the same class. 6. One of the most efficient database engines used in business that delivers multiples of speed of performance of competing database products such as Oracle, at a fraction of the cost of those competing products. 7. Extremely flexible database engine with more capabilities than Oracle and other high-end database engines, but without the high cost typically associated with high-end database engines. -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- Proven Faster. Proven Better. -- -- http://www.informix.com --

DA Morgan wrote: > I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning > had made it in yet. Daniel, can you clarify what the business value of these combinations is? Many features make it into products because "some" customer/view with enough $$ got their will, and not because they are truly useful. To add some color to it. I have never ever received a request from a DB2 customer for nested tables, even when they were familiar with the concept from Oracle. Oracle ISVs wanting to port to IDS or DB2 will OF COURSE demand the features because they just want to run their Oracle apps unchanged without paying Oracle an arm and a leg in the process. You are listing a lot of "features" that appear to be solutions to Oracle unique problems. It's like asking for traction control for an airplane... Cheers Serge PS: How do you define "native"? Let's not even talk of XML, but just the spatial type. What makes them "native" vs. an IDS geospatial datablade? -- Serge Rielau DB2 Solutions Development IBM Toronto Lab

Serge Rielau wrote: > DA Morgan wrote: >> I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning >> had made it in yet. > Daniel, can you clarify what the business value of these combinations is? Extremely important to be able to range partition, for example by date, and then partition by hash within it. At least if you are working with large data sets. > PS: How do you define "native"? Let's not even talk of XML, but just the > spatial type. What makes them "native" vs. an IDS geospatial datablade? The same thing that makes a DATE data type "native" versus storing a string in it that represents a date. I can put zeros and ones into a CHAR(1) or INT but that doesn't make it Boolean. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

>From: Serge Rielau <srielau@ca.ibm.com> >DA Morgan wrote: > > I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning > > had made it in yet. >Oracle ISVs wanting to port to IDS or DB2 will OF COURSE demand the >features because they just want to run their Oracle apps unchanged >without paying Oracle an arm and a leg in the process. >You are listing a lot of "features" that appear to be solutions to >Oracle unique problems. It's like asking for traction control for an >airplane... > >Cheers >Serge > >PS: How do you define "native"? Let's not even talk of XML, but just the >spatial type. What makes them "native" vs. an IDS geospatial datablade? > Serge, Just a couple of things... "Nested Tables" appears to be Oracle's object relational attempt, or their attempt at a hierarchial view of the world. ie Pick. (DICK PICK IS LONG DEAD btw...) Not a very used feature. As to "native" vs a datablade... Well uhm ya know a datablade is "optional" meaning you can turn it off or not implement it. Native? Its there whether you want it or not. :-0 :-) Daniel is playing symantic marketing speak. Like I said, he showed his true collors as a troll when he started to list all these "oracle" features which IDS has implemented for years. I think its almost time to say "Don't feed the trolls" when it comes to Daniel... _________________________________________________________________ Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now. http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2

Tool wrote: > Quick question for you Fernando or anyone else... > > With the introduction of MACH11, do you still need a secondary product > for HA > such as HP Serviceguard, or Red Hat Cluster Manager or other HA product > on the > machine at the OS level if there are no other applications requiring HA? I'm assuming that you are mainly concerned with SDS nodes. Basically all you need is a supported shared disk subsystem. Our testing focus for cheetah, however, was with Veritas clustering on HP64 and Solaris64 and GPFS on Linux64 and AIX64. > > I realize these products manage anything/everything else HA besides the > database, > but am curious if MACH11 requires these kinds of products or if it can act > alone. I do know DB2 can act on its own, having set up HADR on DB2, but > was > curious if IDS MACH11 needs some other OS product with it or not. ( For > those > not familiar with MACH11 it's basically the answer to RAC Daniel. ) I think that it make s more sense to position MACH11 as a combination of RAC + Data Guard since it combines support for HDR, SDS, and RSS. Also it provides realignment functionality for all three of these with ER so that realignment occurs with one single operation. > > Thanks in advance... > > -t- > > Fernando Nunes wrote: >> DA Morgan wrote: >>> Alexey Sonkin wrote: >>>> AFAIK, the problem is about packaging. >>>> Oracle Enterprise license doesn't include features, >>>> such as 'table partitioning', 'parallel query', >>>> 'encryption', 'replication' >>>> >>>> To compare 'apple to apple', one should add all these features >>>> and compare the resulting price >>>> >>>> -Alexey >>> >>> What you "know" is not correct. >>> >>> Oracle's EE does all of the above. >>> Oracle's Standard Edition all except partitioning. >>> Some are done, quite nicely, be the free XE version. >>> >>> But I agree about comparing apples to apples. >>> >>> Informix doesn't have RAC, or Flashback, or ... a >>> near endless list of other Oracle basics. So I'd >>> suggest not going down that road of what you get, >>> or don't get, for your money. >> >> No... please... don't go there... If you do, I have to continue >> browsing... And then I'll find: >> >> http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html >> >> And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: >> >> - RAC (obviously) >> - Database Vault >> - Oracle Advanced Security >> - Label based security >> - OLAP (understandable) >> - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) >> - Data Mining (understandable) >> >> I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this >> newsgroup exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk >> about Informix than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... >> Database wars are over... or not?! >> >> >> >> Regards. >> > > -- > > informix ( in FOR mix ) American English. A combination of "inform" > and Unix. Originally a software product running primarily on UNIX > platforms, > it is still widely available for UNIX, Linux, and Windows computer > platforms. > > Informix IDS, the database engine with the future built in, is available > today > with current releases offering one of the fastest databases, advanced > technology, > and super cool technology that application developers will love. > Suitable and > preferable for Java and Web Applications. Easy to use, easy to admin, > Informix > takes up less space on your system yet delivers more power than Oracle and > other enterprise database products at a fraction of the cost. > > Other Definitions of Informix: > > 1. Database software typically chosen when choosing database products > that don't have a marketing program. Compares favorably with other > database engines such as Oracle, but at a fraction of the cost. > > 2. A collection of cool, highly advanced database technologies suitable for > large and small data-driven applications for Java and Web applications. Can > offer more choices for complex architectures than any other database > engine. > > 3. Easy to use, easy to admin database engine for large and small > businesses and applications, requiring very little data base administration > or attendance. Ideal for vertical applications requiring high availability. > > 4. Consistently high uptime database engine requiring little to no > downtime. > > 5. A database engine capable of managing data at very high speeds and > capacity but available at a fraction of the cost of other database engines > in the same class. > > 6. One of the most efficient database engines used in business that > delivers > multiples of speed of performance of competing database products > such as Oracle, at a fraction of the cost of those competing products. > > 7. Extremely flexible database engine with more capabilities than Oracle > and other high-end database engines, but without the high cost typically > associated with high-end database engines. >

Thanks Madison, replies intertwined below... Madison Pruet wrote: > Tool wrote: >> Quick question for you Fernando or anyone else... >> >> With the introduction of MACH11, do you still need a secondary product >> for HA >> such as HP Serviceguard, or Red Hat Cluster Manager or other HA >> product on the >> machine at the OS level if there are no other applications requiring HA? > > I'm assuming that you are mainly concerned with SDS nodes. Basically > all you need is a supported shared disk subsystem. Our testing focus > for cheetah, however, was with Veritas clustering on HP64 and Solaris64 > and GPFS on Linux64 and AIX64. > OK Cool.. I guess where I was headed was possibly the ability to use the IDS MACH11 feature as a substitution for an OS-layered product like HP Serviceguard for example. Trying to think of using IDS as that bootstrapping mechanism, to reduce complexity and cost, etc etc. It appears to me on the surface that IDS could provide some kind of triggering to bootstrap outside-the-database applications. Is there an API or some kind of interface for that? Serviceguard isn't cheap, but RHCM is, but neither are always an option. -t- >> >> I realize these products manage anything/everything else HA besides >> the database, >> but am curious if MACH11 requires these kinds of products or if it can >> act >> alone. I do know DB2 can act on its own, having set up HADR on DB2, >> but was >> curious if IDS MACH11 needs some other OS product with it or not. ( >> For those >> not familiar with MACH11 it's basically the answer to RAC Daniel. ) > > I think that it make s more sense to position MACH11 as a combination of > RAC + Data Guard since it combines support for HDR, SDS, and RSS. Also > it provides realignment functionality for all three of these with ER so > that realignment occurs with one single operation. > >> > If I'm not mistaken this is built-in to the engine, not an add-on product right? -t- -- -- Informix Dynamic Server Database Engine -- Proven Faster. Proven Better. -- -- http://www.informix.com --

Tool wrote: > Thanks Madison, replies intertwined below... > > Madison Pruet wrote: >> Tool wrote: >>> Quick question for you Fernando or anyone else... >>> >>> With the introduction of MACH11, do you still need a secondary >>> product for HA >>> such as HP Serviceguard, or Red Hat Cluster Manager or other HA >>> product on the >>> machine at the OS level if there are no other applications requiring HA? >> >> I'm assuming that you are mainly concerned with SDS nodes. Basically >> all you need is a supported shared disk subsystem. Our testing focus >> for cheetah, however, was with Veritas clustering on HP64 and >> Solaris64 and GPFS on Linux64 and AIX64. >> > OK Cool.. I guess where I was headed was possibly the ability to use the > IDS MACH11 feature as a substitution for an OS-layered product > like HP Serviceguard for example. Trying to think of using IDS as that > bootstrapping mechanism, to reduce complexity and cost, etc etc. It > appears We don't have this quite in place. However, the MACH11 failover with realignment can be invoked via an SQL interface as well as with an 'onmode' command. So it would be fairly easy to script with an external cluster manager using dbaccess or onmode. > to me on the surface that IDS could provide some kind of triggering to > bootstrap outside-the-database applications. Is there an API or some kind > of interface for that? Serviceguard isn't cheap, but RHCM is, but neither > are always an option. > > -t- > > > >>> >>> I realize these products manage anything/everything else HA besides >>> the database, >>> but am curious if MACH11 requires these kinds of products or if it >>> can act >>> alone. I do know DB2 can act on its own, having set up HADR on DB2, >>> but was >>> curious if IDS MACH11 needs some other OS product with it or not. ( >>> For those >>> not familiar with MACH11 it's basically the answer to RAC Daniel. ) >> >> I think that it make s more sense to position MACH11 as a combination >> of RAC + Data Guard since it combines support for HDR, SDS, and RSS. >> Also it provides realignment functionality for all three of these with >> ER so that realignment occurs with one single operation. >> >>> >> > > If I'm not mistaken this is built-in to the engine, not an add-on > product right? Built-in. > > -t- >

DA Morgan wrote: > Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> >> >> >>> From: Fernando Nunes <spam@domus.online.pt> >>> http://www.oracle.com/database/product_editions.html >>> >>> And guess what... We don't get the following in EE: >>> >>> - RAC (obviously) >>> - Database Vault >>> - Oracle Advanced Security >>> - Label based security >>> - OLAP (understandable) >>> - Partitioning (what did you said above?!) >>> - Data Mining (understandable) >>> >>> I agree with you... let's get back to Informix... That's why this >>> newsgroup >>> exists... and I find you much more interesting when you talk about >>> Informix >>> than when you talk about Oracle... And after all... Database wars are >>> over... >>> or not?! >>> >> Correct, and what do we get with IDS 11? aka CHEETAH! >> >> Oh a whole lot more than Oracle provides. > > That is wholesale nonsense sold at a price slightly above open source. > > I've no doubt you truly believe what you wrote. But rather that, to > paraphrase Rumsfeld: "There are known unknowns and there are unknown > unknowns. In your case Oracle is mostly unknown unknowns. > > Lets just look at tables, the most basic structure in a database and > see how things compare? > > heap tables? ... of course yes. <g> I believe so :) > tables that automatically empty on commit? > tables that automatically empty on session exit? No... Useful if you used them in Oracle and want to port maybe... Temporary tables are session specific and disappear on session close... > tables with automatic compression? No. I wouldn't want to use them in OLTP, but it wouldn't hurt of course... > external tables (operating system files that can be queried)? Possible... If I recall correctly there are examples in developerworks. > index organized tables (combine the table and primary key into a single A clustered index in Informix is more or less like this. > Hash partitioned tables? > List partitioned tables? > Range partitioned tables? > Composite partitioning by range and hash? > Composite partitioning by range and list? You can partition by function... use whatever you want. > Nested tables (tables nested within other tables)? Hierarchichal tables? Maybe yes, but I'm to newbie on this to comment and I don0't really think it's worth it... You'll jump to another argument anyway... > Nested tables (tables with variable length arrays stored within them)? SET, MULTISET? rtfabm? > Native spatial data types? > Native movie, sound, and graphic data types? "native" as in datablade available? yes... You have Oracle Spatial... do you call it native? > Native XML data types? Hopefully this is different than a char/varchar/blob where you can apply XML shredding... if not... cheetah... Although my fealing is that this will be improved... > Native data type for storing date-time with timezone? > Native data type for storing date/time intervals? Not that I recall... > Native polymorphic data types? > Native BLOB data type (up to 128TB per column per row)? How nice to have 128TB in one block. I'd love to make a SELECT on it :) Don't really know the maximum size in Informix... at least 4TB IIRC > Columns with fully automated DES and AES encryption (up to AES 256) Nice... in EE? Or in Vault? > Tables accessible by column hash values Don't know... and I'm too lazy today for searching. > Multiple tables physically co-located within a single block (page)? > You've got more? Please enlighten me by adding to my list. Thanks. HDR... RSS... TimeSeries... Role separation without other products, integrated (although very simple) storage manager, select from table on backup image... I grant you that Oracle has several features that IDS doesn't. DB2 has features that IDS doesn't. XPS has features IDS doesn't. SQL Server probably has features IDS doesn't. And vice-versa. The point is how much you pay for what you really need... If I need to have a document centric XML database I would not choose IDS... But If I want a really cool OLTP engine, IDS would be very high on my short list. Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: Serge Rielau <srielau@ca.ibm.com> > >> DA Morgan wrote: >> > I know that. I was trying to determine whether composite partitioning >> > had made it in yet. >> Oracle ISVs wanting to port to IDS or DB2 will OF COURSE demand the >> features because they just want to run their Oracle apps unchanged >> without paying Oracle an arm and a leg in the process. >> You are listing a lot of "features" that appear to be solutions to >> Oracle unique problems. It's like asking for traction control for an >> airplane... >> >> Cheers >> Serge >> >> PS: How do you define "native"? Let's not even talk of XML, but just the >> spatial type. What makes them "native" vs. an IDS geospatial datablade? >> > > Serge, > > Just a couple of things... > > "Nested Tables" appears to be Oracle's object relational attempt, or > their attempt at a hierarchial view of the world. ie Pick. (DICK PICK IS > LONG DEAD btw...) > > Not a very used feature. > > As to "native" vs a datablade... Well uhm ya know a datablade is > "optional" meaning you can turn it off or not implement it. Native? Its > there whether you want it or not. :-0 :-) > > > Daniel is playing symantic marketing speak. Actually Daniel teaches at a university: http://hdf.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HDF5/doc/TechNotes/TestReview/H5Tget_native_type.html http://hdf.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HDF5/Tutor/datatypes.html www.xcbl.org/DevResources/view/sox2xdr_dtypes.xls http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888243 http://pear.php.net/bugs/bug.php?id=1523 http://www.hdfgroup.org/hdf-java-html/javadocs/ncsa/hdf/object/h5/H5Datatype.html There are 901 links at google. Perhaps someday you'll try education too. <g> Either that or learn the "rule of holes." (for those not familiar with the term ... use google) -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond) Puget Sound Oracle Users Group www.psoug.org

Fernando Nunes wrote: > I grant you that Oracle has several features that IDS doesn't. DB2 has > features that IDS doesn't. XPS has features IDS doesn't. SQL Server > probably has features IDS doesn't. And vice-versa. Precisely. Every product distinguishes itself by its unique feature set. For someone to claim A has more than B requires that they understand the full set of features of both A and B. Something the author of that statement, yesterday, didn't have. -- Daniel A. Morgan University of Washington damorgan@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)

DA Morgan wrote: >> PS: How do you define "native"? Let's not even talk of XML, but just >> the spatial type. What makes them "native" vs. an IDS geospatial >> datablade? > The same thing that makes a DATE data type "native" versus storing a > string in it that represents a date. I can put zeros and ones into a > CHAR(1) or INT but that doesn't make it Boolean. Daniel, I am starting to believe I may know Oracle better than you do ;-) Oracle classifies spatial types under "Oracle supplied types" There even is a distinct list of "built-in types" you can find by searching the relevant websites which does most definitely not contain any spatial types. -- Serge Rielau DB2 Solutions Development IBM Toronto Lab

DA Morgan said: > Either that or learn the "rule of holes." Everybody has one, and it stinks? -- Bye now, Obnoxio "I'm astonished anyone pays real money for this crap." -- Cosmo -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is believed to be clean.

DA Morgan said: > I just keep getting the impression that > IBM is still treating Informix as a poor step-child ... Now you're just stirring. >:o) -- Bye now, Obnoxio "I'm astonished anyone pays real money for this crap." -- Cosmo -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is believed to be clean.