Re: IBM Informix Dynamic Server Version 11.10.UB4TL on SuSE

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > Its one thing for Timmy to post here and vent. > Or to ask questions here. > > I doubt that they are going to be "support" related. > Excuse me I do post support here, and have over the years posted tools and other tips, etc. I _am_ eager to see Informix succeed and have indeed posted over at IBM at the same time as here Thanks Gumby for being fair and balanced. And I'm STILL waiting for Stuart to send me what I asked for 3 times! At least I don't end every fuggin post with "But hey what do I know". That is probably more annoying than anything I say. ;-) -- * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS3kdXycrM&mode=related&search= *

>From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > Its one thing for Timmy to post here and vent. > > Or to ask questions here. > > > > I doubt that they are going to be "support" related. > > > >Excuse me I do post support here, and have over the years posted tools and >other tips, etc. >I _am_ eager to see Informix succeed and have indeed posted over at IBM at >the same time as here >Thanks Gumby for being fair and balanced. And I'm STILL waiting for Stuart >to send me what I asked for 3 times! > >At least I don't end every fuggin post with "But hey what do I know". That >is probably more annoying than anything I say. > Aww Timmy. You're awfully touchy this am. ;-) What I think I'm trying to say is that you're intelligent enough to know that if you wanted to post a "support" issue, you would post it to the IBM newsgroup dealing with the beta. If you want to vent, you'll post it here. Man this is getting silly. The point of my posts is that IBM would like to keep the beta posts on their internal site because they can control the content better. (On both sides of the discussion.) There's nothing evil about their goals. The fact that its an "Open" beta says a lot about the company. (MEANING THAT THEY AINT AFRAID OF THE PRODUCT BLOWING UP IN THEIR FACE LIKE SOME OTHER COMPANIES THAT WE KNOW... ;-) But lets call a spade a spade and at least be honest about it. There's no need to apologize for it. With respect to a new and improved ISA, I'm serious that the community could produce a decent effort without too much headaches. _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.' http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > With respect to a new and improved ISA, I'm serious that the community > could produce a decent effort without too much headaches. Regarding this issue, please hold the idea a bit longer... Cheetah has several features that will make this a lot easier. Some of them are already there and documented, I imagine some are there but not documented, and there are probably a few more to come. To be a bit more specific I mean the SQL administrative API which may sound strange to us who have been working with onstat and onmode for years. But this will be a great feature set to every administrative tool. Also the sysadmin and the kind of db cron that R&D developed are good enhancements. Regards. -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

I am very happy to see these new system databases in Cheetah. After working with other products now for at least the past 7 years, when I typically come back to Informix, it's the "Oh yeah, they don't manage users in Informix, it's in the OS" pause. MySQL for example is very easy to control access with their database, and this is a much overdue feature for Informix. So it's nice to see this is a part of the core system at last. It would be good to see this functionality in Informix SE, which is a peer product with MySQL. Also good to see is the sysadmin database. These kinds of features are going to make Informix more attractive to customers used to these kinds of features on other products. Looks like the Cheetah team has done a good job on priorities. As far as the web front-end, I am hopeful that this will have a real usefulness to it that ISA just doesn't have. Two questions: 1. Will there be an Ubuntu release of Cheetah? I am hopeful for this because Ubuntu is the number ONE distro now, and high expectations are there for products to appear there. I have an Ubuntu system up and running right now to beta test Informix if the team will get it out there. ( AMD x86_64 version ) 2. Will there be a new Informix SE coming out? Fernando Nunes wrote: > Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > >> >> With respect to a new and improved ISA, I'm serious that the community >> could produce a decent effort without too much headaches. > > Regarding this issue, please hold the idea a bit longer... > Cheetah has several features that will make this a lot easier. Some of > them are already there and documented, I imagine some are there but not > documented, and there are probably a few more to come. > > To be a bit more specific I mean the SQL administrative API which may > sound strange to us who have been working with onstat and onmode for > years. But this will be a great feature set to every administrative > tool. Also the sysadmin and the kind of db cron that R&D developed are > good enhancements. > > Regards. > > > -- * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS3kdXycrM&mode=related&search= *

Tool said: > 2. Will there be a new Informix SE coming out? I have no special knowledge or information, but I really can't see this happening. -- Bye now, Obnoxio "I'm astonished anyone pays real money for this crap." -- Cosmo -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is believed to be clean.

Tool wrote: > Two questions: > > 1. Will there be an Ubuntu release of Cheetah? I am hopeful for this > because Ubuntu is the number ONE distro now, and high expectations are > there for products to appear there. I have an Ubuntu system up and > running right now to beta test Informix if the team will get it out > there. ( AMD x86_64 version ) > > 2. Will there be a new Informix SE coming out? I don't have any knowledge about this. Just a few comments: Ubuntu is in fact the number one distro, but I don't really know if it is the number one distro for the kind of environments where IDS is used... Nevertheless, the Linux distributions support of commercial products has always been problematic. We can't expect big companies like IBM to support every Linux distro that keeps popping up (even Larry wants one :) , check December's Linux Magazine for an article on this topic - "planned Parenthood" ). But, in fact, the products *usually* work, at least after installation where you'll find most of the problems. As for SE, I believe it's more or less feature freeze... Regards -- Fernando Nunes Portugal http://informix-technology.blogspot.com My email works... but I don't check it frequently...

Well, until Ubuntu I was pretty much over in SuSE, sometimes getting dragged into draconian RedHat. Ubuntu is a Debian-based distro, SuSE an RPM-based distro. I have to say, Ubuntu has solved all the problems I had on SuSE, but keep in mind SuSE is a whole lot better than RedHat. SuSE SLES for corporate environments isn't bad, but the problem with RPM-based distros in general has been the crappy way to update and install software, and keep the system up to date with intelligent dependency checking, and trying to keep from breaking things. RPM is horrible on dependency management, even though it was meant for that. Ubuntu has a great system for software packages, better than YaST I have to admit. I did read a couple of years ago that Debian-based systems were more of the market than SuSE and RedHat combined, but stayed away from Debian simply because I didn't see Debian in the enterprise, and they seemed to take forever to update and upgrade their releases. They have had somewhat of an outsider mentality, and poor tools. I think Ubuntu is changing all that, simply because it's got the best desktop environment yet, and a fantastic software management system for installations. So, in the interest of staying on top, I'd strongly suggest that IDS gets a Debian-based release out there and if you want to fast-track, and minimize the "distro-creep", Ubuntu looks like the clear winner in the Debian-based distro camp. I think you will find a giant herd of developers on Ubuntu that you won't find on SuSE or RedHat, and IBM should give it a serious look. Fernando Nunes wrote: > Tool wrote: >> Two questions: >> >> 1. Will there be an Ubuntu release of Cheetah? I am hopeful for this >> because Ubuntu is the number ONE distro now, and high expectations are >> there for products to appear there. I have an Ubuntu system up and >> running right now to beta test Informix if the team will get it out >> there. ( AMD x86_64 version ) >> >> 2. Will there be a new Informix SE coming out? > > I don't have any knowledge about this. Just a few comments: > > Ubuntu is in fact the number one distro, but I don't really know if it > is the number one distro for the kind of environments where IDS is used... > Nevertheless, the Linux distributions support of commercial products has > always been problematic. We can't expect big companies like IBM to > support every Linux distro that keeps popping up (even Larry wants one > :) , check December's Linux Magazine for an article on this topic - > "planned Parenthood" ). But, in fact, the products *usually* work, at > least after installation where you'll find most of the problems. > > As for SE, I believe it's more or less feature freeze... > Regards > -- * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS3kdXycrM&mode=related&search= *

"Tool" <tool@thetool.com> wrote in message news:P7JCh.3036$%34.1225@fe69.usenetserver.com... > Well, until Ubuntu I was pretty much over in SuSE, sometimes getting > dragged into draconian RedHat. Ubuntu is a Debian-based distro, SuSE an > RPM-based distro. I have to say, Ubuntu has solved all the problems I had > on SuSE, but keep in mind SuSE is a whole lot better than RedHat. SuSE > SLES for corporate environments isn't bad, but the problem with RPM-based > distros in general has been the crappy way to update and install software, > and keep the system up to date with intelligent dependency checking, and > trying to keep from breaking things. RPM is horrible on dependency > management, even though it was meant for that. Ubuntu has a great system > for software packages, better than YaST I have to admit. > > I did read a couple of years ago that Debian-based systems were more of > the market than SuSE and RedHat combined, but stayed away from Debian > simply because I didn't see Debian in the enterprise, and they seemed to > take forever to update and upgrade their releases. They have had somewhat > of an outsider mentality, and poor tools. I think Ubuntu is changing > all that, simply because it's got the best desktop environment yet, and a > fantastic software management system for installations. > So, in the interest of staying on top, I'd strongly suggest that IDS gets > a Debian-based release out there and if you want to fast-track, and > minimize the "distro-creep", Ubuntu looks like the clear winner in the > Debian-based distro camp. I think you will find a giant herd of > developers on Ubuntu that you won't find on SuSE or RedHat, and IBM should > give it a serious look. Doubt if they wil, though. IBM has taken a decision to support only two distributions, no doubt to keep support costs under control. Given that they will take the "big" two, because irrespective of the cogent technical arguments you make, the marketing is behind RedHat and SuSE. Funnily enough this is why companies choose Oracle and SQL Server rather than Informix, too!

It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and you will be sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package management, but wait, there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your system up to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one command-line command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. Ironic that Debian had been branded somewhat elitist with their 'superior' update capability a while back. Almost seems like a perfect fit for Informix. :-) apt-get was/is a bit hard to understand but I guess in the long run the Debian style of distro keeps getting picked time and again for new distros. In fact you can spin your own debian-style distro with tools out on the net. It is even possible to spin a complete boot-from-cd distro that could start up Informix online, and make everything happen as 'already-installed' and ready to run. Knoppix, Turbolinux, all of these seem to be just as successful if not more than RedHat or other RPM-based systems. There are other sites that have d-i-y distros but this one might start some interest in the budding Informix zealot to create an Informix distro: http://reconstructor.aperantis.com Neil Truby wrote: > "Tool" <tool@thetool.com> wrote in message > news:P7JCh.3036$%34.1225@fe69.usenetserver.com... >> Well, until Ubuntu I was pretty much over in SuSE, sometimes getting >> dragged into draconian RedHat. Ubuntu is a Debian-based distro, SuSE an >> RPM-based distro. I have to say, Ubuntu has solved all the problems I had >> on SuSE, but keep in mind SuSE is a whole lot better than RedHat. SuSE >> SLES for corporate environments isn't bad, but the problem with RPM-based >> distros in general has been the crappy way to update and install software, >> and keep the system up to date with intelligent dependency checking, and >> trying to keep from breaking things. RPM is horrible on dependency >> management, even though it was meant for that. Ubuntu has a great system >> for software packages, better than YaST I have to admit. >> >> I did read a couple of years ago that Debian-based systems were more of >> the market than SuSE and RedHat combined, but stayed away from Debian >> simply because I didn't see Debian in the enterprise, and they seemed to >> take forever to update and upgrade their releases. They have had somewhat >> of an outsider mentality, and poor tools. I think Ubuntu is changing >> all that, simply because it's got the best desktop environment yet, and a >> fantastic software management system for installations. >> So, in the interest of staying on top, I'd strongly suggest that IDS gets >> a Debian-based release out there and if you want to fast-track, and >> minimize the "distro-creep", Ubuntu looks like the clear winner in the >> Debian-based distro camp. I think you will find a giant herd of >> developers on Ubuntu that you won't find on SuSE or RedHat, and IBM should >> give it a serious look. > > Doubt if they wil, though. IBM has taken a decision to support only two > distributions, no doubt to keep support costs under control. Given that > they will take the "big" two, because irrespective of the cogent technical > arguments you make, the marketing is behind RedHat and SuSE. > > Funnily enough this is why companies choose Oracle and SQL Server rather > than Informix, too! > > -- * * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVS3kdXycrM&mode=related&search= *

Tool, you don't need the "official" Ubuntu/Debian Informix port for testing Cheetah. Just google the group for "Informix support for various Linux distributions" and you'll se Andreas Breitfeld's instructions for Informix on Debian. I'm using it for more than a year (mostly inside vmware) and never had ANY problem. Enjoy! Davorin "Tool" <tool@thetool.com> wrote in message news:tQMCh.1724$v%4.1686@fe172.usenetserver.com... > It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and you > will be > sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package management, > but wait, > there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your > system up > to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one > command-line > command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. > > Ironic that Debian had been branded somewhat elitist with their 'superior' > update capability a while back. Almost seems like a perfect fit for > Informix. > > :-) > > apt-get was/is a bit hard to understand but I guess in the long run the > Debian > style of distro keeps getting picked time and again for new distros. In > fact you > can spin your own debian-style distro with tools out on the net. It is > even possible > to spin a complete boot-from-cd distro that could start up Informix > online, and > make everything happen as 'already-installed' and ready to run. Knoppix, > Turbolinux, > all of these seem to be just as successful if not more than RedHat or > other RPM-based > systems. > > There are other sites that have d-i-y distros but this one might start > some interest in the budding Informix zealot to create an Informix distro: > http://reconstructor.aperantis.com

>From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and you >will be >sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package management, but >wait, >there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your >system up >to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one >command-line >command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. > Uhm no. First, I think you've lost your perspective. Hint: Where was ubuntu when SuSE and RedHat were just getting started. (BIG HINT: Why do you think that they use RPM and Ubuntu doesn't?) Second. The point others were trying to make was that those Linux users who use products like DB2, Oracle, and IDS on Linux are going to purchase a supported copy like SuSE's Enterprise series. Unlike you and I who would opt for the "free version" (TANSTAAFL). This is the market that the developers are going to work towards. Will Informix work with Ubuntu? Most likely if the glibc and the kernel match levels with RH and SuSE. With respect to Linux for commercial users, I'd say tha Novell did a smart thing by doing that cross deal with Microsoft. Indemnification does a lot towards getting a technology adopted. _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > >> From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >> It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and >> you will be >> sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package >> management, but wait, >> there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your >> system up >> to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one >> command-line >> command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. >> > Uhm no. > > First, I think you've lost your perspective. I've lost perspective on some things and gained on a lot of others. > Hint: Where was ubuntu when SuSE and RedHat were just getting started. > (BIG HINT: Why do you think that they use RPM and Ubuntu doesn't?) > It doesn't really matter where ubuntu _was_, the point is where are they now? SuSE and RedHat have failed to make RPM better. They can't. They have too much invested in keeping it status quo, simply to prevent breaking it. Breaking it means making it better, and risk losing your customers who will simply start looking for Linux with better software asset management tools. Ubuntu is at the top of the list. Defending RPM as if it's better is a red herring. It's just not a valid argument. The bottom line is that RPM does a few things well, but is too difficult to use to do a lot of other things best. You end up having to compromise. Don't get wrong, apt-get has had its own history and growing pains. But what is instructive is in paying attention to the new crop of distributions, most if not all are Debian based. After using Ubuntu, I see no need to use SuSE for anything, or RedHat. Ubuntu is a solid release, with excellent software asset management tools, superior in many ways to RPM-based systems. Your perspective should be asking, how well can I make my RPM system work with Debian-based methods? Ubuntu still allows you to use RPM, still allows you to set up an LSB-compliant system, still allows you to do what you already do on RPM-based systems. SuSE and RedHat simply do not have the wide variety of options that Ubuntu has. Ubuntu starts off as a Debian-based system, but you can still do all the RPM stuff if you prefer to do it that way. But I don't see SuSE or Redhat announcing to the world that they can set your system up as a Debian system. It's just not going to happen. > Second. > > The point others were trying to make was that those Linux users who use > products like DB2, Oracle, and IDS on Linux are going to purchase a > supported copy like SuSE's Enterprise series. Unlike you and I who would > opt for the "free version" (TANSTAAFL). > Ubuntu sells support. > This is the market that the developers are going to work towards. > The developers I'd be interested in are my son's age. 21 year olds who are the next generation of IT people. Most of these people are being exposed to Ubuntu, Knoppix, etc etc. This is where they will make their choices. SuSE, RedHat are now legacy Linux systems, lost on people who don't see the future. > Will Informix work with Ubuntu? Most likely if the glibc and the kernel > match levels with RH and SuSE. > Stability and status quo are important concepts in any IT endeavor, but to overlook Ubuntu because of your lack of understanding of it doesn't make it a bad choice. I worked with a Debian zealot a while back, and took issue with him constantly introducing it into the enterprise systems we had, that used SuSE, and some RedHat. Was it because I didn't like Debian? No, it was support. Ubuntu changes that paradigm because we could now get paid support for it. I can see now that in that environment we would have had a better system, better update/upgrade tools, and less headaches worrying about dependencies that might break in an RPM environment. Debian itself was/is not the best choice for the enterprise, but systems like Knoppix and Ubuntu have paved new ground by making updating and upgrading very robust, and very easy. This translates into lower training costs, less risk, lower compliance hurdles, and lower overall maintenance costs. > With respect to Linux for commercial users, I'd say tha Novell did a > smart thing by doing that cross deal with Microsoft. Indemnification > does a lot towards getting a technology adopted. > Yes, well doing a deal is one thing. Adoption is another. As alternatives to RPM-based systems start becoming more prominent, you will see this deal become less relevant. The Linux world is changing far too fast to worry about what SuSE did with Microsoft. The best thing about it is that it validates Linux in the enterprise, but that simply means if you shop around for the best Linux, it's no longer just SuSE or RedHat. I can exploit my SuSE skills, but my 21 year old son can exploit his Ubuntu skills and run circles around anyone knowing just SuSE or Redhat. It's that simple.

Sigh, Timmy, you've failed to grasp the obvious point. Ubuntu didn't exist when RedHat and SuSE started their distros and based them around RPM. (Heck RedHat invented RPM and it seemed like a good idea at the time.) RPM does work. Is it perfect, no. But it works. Just like cpio. Nobody is defending RPM, just that you're just bitching about something that really doesn't matter. You praise Ubuntu as *the* favorite distro. Based on what? The number of downloads vs OpenSuSE? Put things back in to perspective Timmy. Those who run IDS on Linux in a production environment run either RHAT or SuSE. Why? Cause they were the enterprise ready distros offering support services. Nowadays you should be recommending Novell/SuSE to your customers as the distro of choice. CAN YOU SAY INDEMNIFICATION? Naw, that's a legal term that means nothing to a super start like yourself. While that's a 25 cent word, it has a lot of implications that could save your sorry arse from a lawsuit. Assuming of course that you're selling your services to your clients and are recommending which flavor of Unix to use. But hey! What do I know? Nothing like spending 4-5 years inside IBM selling and writing contracts with their customers. -G >From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> > >Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > > > > > > > >> From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> > >> It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and > >> you will be > >> sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package > >> management, but wait, > >> there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your > >> system up > >> to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one > >> command-line > >> command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. > >> > > Uhm no. > > > > First, I think you've lost your perspective. > >I've lost perspective on some things and gained on a lot of others. > > > Hint: Where was ubuntu when SuSE and RedHat were just getting started. > > (BIG HINT: Why do you think that they use RPM and Ubuntu doesn't?) > > > >It doesn't really matter where ubuntu _was_, the point is where are they >now? >SuSE and RedHat have failed to make RPM better. They can't. They have too >much invested in keeping it status quo, simply to prevent breaking it. >Breaking >it means making it better, and risk losing your customers who will simply >start >looking for Linux with better software asset management tools. Ubuntu is >at >the top of the list. > >Defending RPM as if it's better is a red herring. It's just not a valid >argument. The bottom line is that RPM does a few things well, but is too >difficult to use to do a lot of other things best. You end up having to >compromise. Don't get wrong, apt-get has had its own history and growing >pains. But what is instructive is in paying attention to the new crop of >distributions, most if not all are Debian based. After using Ubuntu, I >see no need to use SuSE for anything, or RedHat. Ubuntu is a solid >release, >with excellent software asset management tools, superior in many ways to >RPM-based systems. > >Your perspective should be asking, how well can I make my RPM system work >with Debian-based methods? Ubuntu still allows you to use RPM, still >allows >you to set up an LSB-compliant system, still allows you to do what you >already >do on RPM-based systems. SuSE and RedHat simply do not have the wide >variety >of options that Ubuntu has. Ubuntu starts off as a Debian-based system, >but >you can still do all the RPM stuff if you prefer to do it that way. But I >don't see SuSE or Redhat announcing to the world that they can set your >system >up as a Debian system. It's just not going to happen. > > > > > > Second. > > > > The point others were trying to make was that those Linux users who use > > products like DB2, Oracle, and IDS on Linux are going to purchase a > > supported copy like SuSE's Enterprise series. Unlike you and I who would > > opt for the "free version" (TANSTAAFL). > > > >Ubuntu sells support. > > > This is the market that the developers are going to work towards. > > > >The developers I'd be interested in are my son's age. 21 year olds who >are the next generation of IT people. Most of these people are being >exposed to Ubuntu, Knoppix, etc etc. This is where they will make their >choices. SuSE, RedHat are now legacy Linux systems, lost on people who >don't see the future. > > > > Will Informix work with Ubuntu? Most likely if the glibc and the kernel > > match levels with RH and SuSE. > > > >Stability and status quo are important concepts in any IT endeavor, but >to overlook Ubuntu because of your lack of understanding of it doesn't >make it a bad choice. I worked with a Debian zealot a while back, and >took issue with him constantly introducing it into the enterprise systems >we had, that used SuSE, and some RedHat. Was it because I didn't like >Debian? No, it was support. Ubuntu changes that paradigm because we could >now get paid support for it. I can see now that in that environment we >would have had a better system, better update/upgrade tools, and less >headaches >worrying about dependencies that might break in an RPM environment. Debian >itself was/is not the best choice for the enterprise, but systems like >Knoppix >and Ubuntu have paved new ground by making updating and upgrading very >robust, >and very easy. This translates into lower training costs, less risk, lower >compliance hurdles, and lower overall maintenance costs. > > > With respect to Linux for commercial users, I'd say tha Novell did a > > smart thing by doing that cross deal with Microsoft. Indemnification > > does a lot towards getting a technology adopted. > > > >Yes, well doing a deal is one thing. Adoption is another. As alternatives >to RPM-based systems start becoming more prominent, you will see this deal >become less relevant. The Linux world is changing far too fast to worry >about what SuSE did with Microsoft. The best thing about it is that it >validates Linux in the enterprise, but that simply means if you shop around >for the best Linux, it's no longer just SuSE or RedHat. I can exploit my >SuSE skills, but my 21 year old son can exploit his Ubuntu skills and run >circles around anyone knowing just SuSE or Redhat. It's that simple. > >_______________________________________________ >Informix-list mailing list >Informix-list@iiug.org >http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE

Ian Michael Gumby wrote: > Sigh, > Timmy, you've failed to grasp the obvious point. > Thanks Mikey for guiding me. > Ubuntu didn't exist when RedHat and SuSE started their distros and based > them around RPM. (Heck RedHat invented RPM and it seemed like a good > idea at the time.) > > RPM does work. Is it perfect, no. But it works. > > Just like cpio. > > Nobody is defending RPM, just that you're just bitching about something > that really doesn't matter. > Again I have failed miserably to communicate. Please pass along my apologies to them that care. ;-) > You praise Ubuntu as *the* favorite distro. Based on what? The number of > downloads vs OpenSuSE? > Good point. By-the-numbers ya got me. I do not know what the download count is. I can't lead by the numbers and that makes me feel like a failure. :-) But one only has to take a serious look at the market and the buzz, and it's not coming from the RPM crowd. It just ain't happenin'. > Put things back in to perspective Timmy. Those who run IDS on Linux in a > production environment run either RHAT or SuSE. Why? Cause they were the > enterprise ready distros offering support services. > Let's say you're 100% correct. How did SuSE go from 0% to some-percent of acceptability->legitimacy->support-contract-capable ? Ubuntu offers support (too), and if there were a "good deal" it would certainly come from the company with the lowest amount of risk. Honestly, the best support model is to have a product requiring little support, right? Between SuSE and RedHat and Ubuntu, I'd have to bet on Ubuntu simply because Ubuntu's shit simply works. End of story. But you makes your choices and move along. > Nowadays you should be recommending Novell/SuSE to your customers as the > distro of choice. > Why? I only offer Linux for one thing, competitive advantage. I couldn't care less which distro you use, or what I recommend. Honestly, SuSE has been pretty darn good over the years, Red Hat always the "Chevy", certainly 'there' for the K-mart crowd, mediocre at best, and then it's a long list of maybe-this -or-that-is-the-one distro with anything better. Debian was never a choice for a lot of reasons, but if you take a cold hard look at the market, people in the know said, "take the best update manager and move forward.". RPM lost. More distros now in the mix are Debian than any other method, and this is by design. RPM won't get there, and never will. RPM and that whole druid RPM religion are bogged down with being status quo rather than focusing on the reason for being there, which is to either install new, or update and/or upgrade software. And people are not stopping there. The real quest is for a system that takes care of itself. You won't get there with RPM. I have to tip my hat to Knoppix, Ubuntu, Gentoo, and any other team of people that totally kicked ass on a new way to do things. We'll see more in the next year that will be amazing. > CAN YOU SAY INDEMNIFICATION? > > Naw, that's a legal term that means nothing to a super start like yourself. > > While that's a 25 cent word, it has a lot of implications that could > save your sorry arse from a lawsuit. <Laughing_Now> :-) Thanks for the heads up. The Novell/Microsoft deal is only as good as its ability to build a market that says it is legit and keeps it legit. Microsoft is buying that market but that doesn't mean it's sustainable. The open market, where the new distros are coming from, may completely rewrite the rules making Novell/Microsoft irrelevant. Unless there is a ground swell of support from either the Microsoft community or the Linux community, it's all bull shit. If nobody is buying, what does that tell you? We'll see how serious this agreement is over the next 3 years to see how much money Microsoft pours into it to push it. I will bet if there is no Microsoft marketing that nothing will come of it over the long term, simply because the Linux market wants Microsoft to lead, and if Microsoft doesn't do anything real, the Linux camp will just move away from it as if it never happened. > Assuming of course that you're selling your services to your clients and > are recommending which flavor of Unix to use. > I don't recommend UNIX. > But hey! What do I know? Excellent question. > Nothing like spending 4-5 years inside IBM selling and writing contracts > with their customers. > I can't imagine. > -G > > > > >> From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >> >> Ian Michael Gumby wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> From: Tool <tool@thetool.com> >> >> It will take a one-time showing of Ubuntu next to SuSE or RedHat and >> >> you will be >> >> sold. Synaptic is the Yast equivalent for software package >> >> management, but wait, >> >> there's still apt-get, and yet even more tools available to keep your >> >> system up >> >> to date. I had a Ubuntu 6.02 system that I upgraded to 6.10 with one >> >> command-line >> >> command, and after about 2 hours the system was completely upgraded. >> >> >> > Uhm no. >> > >> > First, I think you've lost your perspective. >> >> I've lost perspective on some things and gained on a lot of others. >> >> > Hint: Where was ubuntu when SuSE and RedHat were just getting started. >> > (BIG HINT: Why do you think that they use RPM and Ubuntu doesn't?) >> > >> >> It doesn't really matter where ubuntu _was_, the point is where are >> they now? >> SuSE and RedHat have failed to make RPM better. They can't. They >> have too >> much invested in keeping it status quo, simply to prevent breaking >> it. Breaking >> it means making it better, and risk losing your customers who will >> simply start >> looking for Linux with better software asset management tools. Ubuntu >> is at >> the top of the list. >> >> Defending RPM as if it's better is a red herring. It's just not a valid >> argument. The bottom line is that RPM does a few things well, but is too >> difficult to use to do a lot of other things best. You end up having to >> compromise. Don't get wrong, apt-get has had its own history and growing >> pains. But what is instructive is in paying attention to the new crop of >> distributions, most if not all are Debian based. After using Ubuntu, I >> see no need to use SuSE for anything, or RedHat. Ubuntu is a solid >> release, >> with excellent software asset management tools, superior in many ways to >> RPM-based systems. >> >> Your perspective should be asking, how well can I make my RPM system work >> with Debian-based methods? Ubuntu still allows you to use RPM, still >> allows >> you to set up an LSB-compliant system, still allows you to do what you >> already >> do on RPM-based systems. SuSE and RedHat simply do not have the wide >> variety >> of options that Ubuntu has. Ubuntu starts off as a Debian-based >> system, but >> you can still do all the RPM stuff if you prefer to do it that way. >> But I >> don't see SuSE or Redhat announcing to the world that they can set >> your system >> up as a Debian system. It's just not goi

Some somewhat relevant links regarding this discussion: http://www.techspot.com/news/24406-Dell-customers-demand-Linux.html http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2007/02/08/the-story-of-rpm/ http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/talk.html